Källa overview

A source of endless thrills

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6630
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

Overview.gif
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6630
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

Above is an overview of how Källa connects to your HiFi system, your control point and the internet.

The control points that are currently supported are Apple devices. We have attempted to add Android devices, but haven't managed to get the musical quality to satisfactory levels. If we should manage to make Android perform well enough, it can easily be added with a firmware update of Källa.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2336
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Källa overview

Post by Spannko »

Does this suggest that taking a feed directly from the modem/router is better than going through a network switch?
User avatar
macrotech2
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 461
Joined: 2012-04-27 07:58

Re: Källa overview

Post by macrotech2 »

Is Control Point the correct term here Fredrik? In my understanding a Control Point selects the music from a source and directs it to a renderer. The music doesn't originate from the Control Point if it's on a NAS for example. Unless I'm misunderstanding, here the Control Point is always the source as all music is streamed from the iDevice, no matter how it got to the iDevice.

I suppose you're just trying to make the diagram as simple as possible, which is why there's no need to show a switch between the router and the player.

You could add MConnect to the list of Apps, or any other App, that indicates that music can be streamed from a NAS to the iDevice, and then sent on to Källa.
Källa/Sagatun Mono 1.7/Tundra Mono 3/Avalon Idea Mk2
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2119
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Källa overview

Post by matthias »

macrotech2 wrote: 2021-04-25 13:21 Unless I'm misunderstanding, here the Control Point is always the source as all music is streamed from the iDevice, no matter how it got to the iDevice.
This is my understanding as well.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6630
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

macrotech2 wrote: 2021-04-25 13:21 Is Control Point the correct term here Fredrik?
You are correct in that what I call Control Point in the diagram above can be regarded as the source.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6630
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

Overview2.gif
The wifi connection can be replaced by a cable, in case you're using a computer instead of a phone or tablet.

Our testing so far indicates that this sounds great - in some cases a little better than WiFi.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6630
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2021-04-25 12:56 Does this suggest that taking a feed directly from the modem/router is better than going through a network switch?
Good question.

The router affects the sound and musicality of all streamers. Källa is no exception. The musically best performing router is likely the same for all streamers, i.e. it's an intrinsic quality of the router and not a question of the right combination.

I wish I could give a list of which routers perform the best, but it's quite a challenge given how many models there are and how much time and money is required to test them. In general it seems old routers are often good while modern mesh systems can be quite bad, giving the streamer a harsh and annoying character.

The consensus has been that adding a switch between the router and the streamer is beneficial to the sound and musicality. With Källa, we have found that this is not always the case. With a bad sounding router, the addition of a switch is positive - the switch has a "smoothing" character. But with a good sounding router, it isn't always better to add a switch.

An example: At my lab I have a D-Link DWR-116, which is a cheap old router that takes a 4G dongle. It sounds pretty good and with Källa it's better to connect them directly than to add a Netgear GS-108T switch in between.
Switch.gif
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2119
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Källa overview

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-25 15:51 Overview2.gif
The wifi connection can be replaced by a cable, in case you're using a computer instead of a phone or tablet.
Our testing so far indicates that this sounds great - in some cases a little better than WiFi.
Fredrik,
since the router is on another level than the audio set-up in my house it would be MUCH more convenient to connect the computer and Källa directly with an ethernet cable (not via the router).
Would there be a penalty in musicality to do so?

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6630
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-04-25 16:14
lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-25 15:51 Overview2.gif
The wifi connection can be replaced by a cable, in case you're using a computer instead of a phone or tablet.
Our testing so far indicates that this sounds great - in some cases a little better than WiFi.
Fredrik,
since the router is on another level than the audio set-up in my house it would be MUCH more convenient to connect the computer and Källa directly with an ethernet cable (not via the router).
Would be a penalty in musicality to do so?
I don't know, I haven't tested it. But I'm certain it's possible.

When Källa is connected to the local network, everything is automatic and works instantly. It's incredibly simple to connect and use.

What you are suggesting will require some computer skills.
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 982
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

Re: Källa overview

Post by David Neel »

The apps/programs listed by the control point are all streaming services. Would control point apps such as Kazoo work? Or other apps which can access files on an LSNAS? Or would the files need to be transferred to an Apple device? That is, could an Apple-based music server work for those who don't use streaming? E.g. a mac mini?
The search for knowledge is not nourished by certainty, but by a radical distrust in certainty
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2119
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Källa overview

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-25 16:20 What you are suggesting will require some computer skills.
IMO, it should work when "internet sharing" is activated in Mac System Preferences.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6630
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

David Neel wrote: 2021-04-25 16:21 The apps/programs listed by the control point are all streaming services. Would control point apps such as Kazoo work? Or other apps which can access files on an LSNAS? Or would the files need to be transferred to an Apple device? That is, could an Apple-based music server work for those who don't use streaming? E.g. a mac mini?
Källa should be regarded as a source component for streaming services.

It’s not difficult to add UPnP so that Källa can access files from a standard NAS. But we have chosen not to do so, because
1) Streaming services sound better without the UPnP protocol added,
2) Streaming services sound better without a NAS connected (typically to a switch that is connected to the streamer and the NAS),
3) Streaming services are, with 1 and 2 above applied, in general more musical than listening to the same music stored on a NAS, even when the files on the NAS are higher in resolution than what the streaming services offer.

If we ever add the ability for Källa to play locally stored music, it will be a solution that is made entirely in-house and specifically tuned for musicality in each and every parameter. Standard NASes and protocols are convenient but in our view simply not good enough.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2119
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Källa overview

Post by matthias »

Fredrik,

is there am impact of the "Computer" in your diagram on musicality?
Are for example the later Apples with M1 processor different to the older ones with Intel processor?
Thanks

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
DelNaja
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 95
Joined: 2011-12-30 11:22
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Källa overview

Post by DelNaja »

Thank you for the schematics, Fredrik!

Regarding Overview.gif, is the internet connection necessary, really? Doesn't the mobile Control Point feed the music stream to Källa via its own internet connection?

In Overview2.gif, however, the internet connection seems to be needed for the cable fed computer to be able to access the online streaming service and feed the music stream to Källa.

Am I understanding it correctly?
David Neel
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 982
Joined: 2008-02-08 23:17
Location: The Magical Forest

Re: Källa overview

Post by David Neel »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-25 22:19 If we ever add the ability for Källa to play locally stored music, it will be a solution that is made entirely in-house and specifically tuned for musicality in each and every parameter. Standard NASes and protocols are convenient but in our view simply not good enough.
This I can understand, after my efforts to optimise my LSNAS. But it's a huge disappointment.
The search for knowledge is not nourished by certainty, but by a radical distrust in certainty
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2119
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Källa overview

Post by matthias »

DelNaja wrote: 2021-04-26 06:54 Regarding Overview.gif, is the internet connection necessary, really? Doesn't the mobile Control Point feed the music stream to Källa via its own internet connection?
IMO, in most cases the mobile CP will get Internet via WiFi anyway and not via its own mobile data provider.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
macrotech2
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 461
Joined: 2012-04-27 07:58

Re: Källa overview

Post by macrotech2 »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-25 22:19 Källa should be regarded as a source component for streaming services.

It’s not difficult to add UPnP so that Källa can access files from a standard NAS. But we have chosen not to do so, because
1) Streaming services sound better without the UPnP protocol added,
2) Streaming services sound better without a NAS connected (typically to a switch that is connected to the streamer and the NAS),
3) Streaming services are, with 1 and 2 above applied, in general more musical than listening to the same music stored on a NAS, even when the files on the NAS are higher in resolution than what the streaming services offer.

If we ever add the ability for Källa to play locally stored music, it will be a solution that is made entirely in-house and specifically tuned for musicality in each and every parameter. Standard NASes and protocols are convenient but in our view simply not good enough.
There are Apps like MConnect that will communicate with a NAS over UPnP and then broadcast over Airplay, which is a way for people to use their NASes.

However, are you saying here in 2) that having a NAS connected on the same network as Källa could degrade the output from Källa? If so, can you suggest why this is the case?

I'm also still unclear how the iOS device "implements" Protokoll. Does Källa somehow tell the iOS device how to encode the stream or is there a Källa app?
Källa/Sagatun Mono 1.7/Tundra Mono 3/Avalon Idea Mk2
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6630
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

macrotech2 wrote: 2021-04-26 12:35 However, are you saying here in 2) that having a NAS connected on the same network as Källa could degrade the output from Källa? If so, can you suggest why this is the case?
Not necessarily. I don't think it matters if there are any NASes on the same network as Källa. What's important is that they don't constantly chatter and in particular that the streamer listens and answers. So in the typical arrangement with a Streamer and a NAS on a separate switch, the Streamer powered from the same power strip as the HiFi system and the switch and NAS powered from a separate strip, there are benefits from removing the NAS (and possibly also the switch) both from the network and the mains power. This has already been discovered by owners of Linn DS streamers.

The only option currently available in Källa is to set it to a fixed IP address. This provides a small performance benefit because the network chatter (caused by DHCP) decreases.

There is no app to install on any device.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6630
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

DelNaja wrote: 2021-04-26 06:54 Thank you for the schematics, Fredrik!

Regarding Overview.gif, is the internet connection necessary, really? Doesn't the mobile Control Point feed the music stream to Källa via its own internet connection?
As Matthias wrote, when you set your phone or tablet to WiFi, it will expect to reach the internet from the WiFi. If there is no internet connection on the WiFi, the phone/tablet will ask whether you want to switch to mobile data. And then it might turn off the WiFi.

So the right way to do it is to have your router connected to internet.
donuk
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 407
Joined: 2010-02-21 13:25

Re: Källa overview

Post by donuk »

Personally I am disappointed that the Kalla does not have an onboard volume control that can be bypassed. I am aware of the sonic preferences for preamplifiers.
But it would mean that one could start with a simpler system and regard a preamplifier as an upgrade when funds allowed.
As an ADS Kat user I use the internal volume control. To audition a Kalla I would need to obtain a preamplifier.

Donuk, York.
User avatar
DelNaja
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 95
Joined: 2011-12-30 11:22
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Källa overview

Post by DelNaja »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-26 19:25 As Matthias wrote, when you set your phone or tablet to WiFi, it will expect to reach the internet from the WiFi. If there is no internet connection on the WiFi, the phone/tablet will ask whether you want to switch to mobile data. And then it might turn off the WiFi.

So the right way to do it is to have your router connected to internet.
Thanks!

Regarding Overview2.gif, does the cable fed computer also have to be an Apple device?
Defender
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1266
Joined: 2018-02-14 22:35

Re: Källa overview

Post by Defender »

@donuk: every feature means investing time and money - I understand your point in addressing a bigger target group - however digital volume control means more programming and likely more compromise on the musicality.
I have an Akurate Katalyst too - I tested the digital volume control and it was eating up the soul of music. I heard digital volume controls on several occasions- just this weekend with a different player directly into my power amps at my home. It simply draws down all the other investments you put into your stereo system.

Again I completely understand where you are coming from and I am happy for you that obviously the digital volume control of the AKDS Katalyst works for you.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2119
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Källa overview

Post by matthias »

DelNaja wrote: 2021-04-27 07:55 Regarding Overview2.gif, does the cable fed computer also have to be an Apple device?
IIUC, Apple and Airplay capable.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
V.A.MKD
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 862
Joined: 2019-10-09 15:33
Location: Skopje / Europe
Contact:

Re: Källa overview

Post by V.A.MKD »

Defender wrote: 2021-04-27 08:51 @donuk: every feature means investing time and money - I understand your point in addressing a bigger target group - however digital volume control means more programming and likely more compromise on the musicality.
I have an Akurate Katalyst too - I tested the digital volume control and it was eating up the soul of music. I heard digital volume controls on several occasions- just this weekend with a different player directly into my power amps at my home. It simply draws down all the other investments you put into your stereo system.

Again I completely understand where you are coming from and I am happy for you that obviously the digital volume control of the AKDS Katalyst works for you.
+1, I have the same experience with digital volume control as Defender have, but with CD/SACD ...
Music First ...
Vlado
Post Reply