Källa overview

A source of endless thrills

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springwood64
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Re: Källa overview

Post by springwood64 »

macrotech2 wrote: 2021-05-11 16:09 What I still don't understand though is how the Spotify App knows how to encode in the Källa Protokoll .
I don't think that the Spotify App knows anything of Källa.

The iDevice intercepts the audio stream that is sent to its local audio interface by the Spotify App and instead of sending it to the iDevice's audio processor it sends it via AirPlay to the AirPlay server/streamer
Last edited by springwood64 on 2021-05-11 16:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by macrotech2 »

Pete

Thanks for expanding but the use of server and client seems the wrong way round to me? Perhaps using sender and receiver would be clearer?

Thanks
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Re: Källa overview

Post by springwood64 »

macrotech2 wrote: 2021-05-11 16:34 Pete

Thanks for expanding but the use of server and client seems the wrong way round to me? Perhaps using sender and receiver would be clearer?

Thanks
It is a bit confusing, but I'm using the terms (I think correctly) that the AirPlay documentation uses.

I have edited the original post to (hopefully) clarify.

An AirPlay client has a stream that it wants to send, in order for it to be played on an AirPlay server. An iPhone is an AirPlay client and Källa looks to it like an AirPlay server.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by u252agz »

Thanks for that- I’m reaally impressed by the knowledge base out there on the forum.

Making me feel very IT illiterate.

I am assuming that my KDS And sneakys work in a similar fashion to Kalla with the control point .

In which case the choice of device for the control point will also affect musicality.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by PetterS »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-05-11 16:24

The AirPlay protocol is very different. The AirPlay server offers the ability to receive and play an AirPlay stream. An AirPlay client has a stream that it wants to send, in order for it to be played on an AirPlay server. An iPhone is an AirPlay client and Källa looks to it like an AirPlay server.
  1. The AirPlay client connects to a track web address, via wifi router, internet service provider and the www, just like the streamer does above
  2. The AirPlay client sends a request via the wifi router, addressed to the AirPlay server to establish a connection
  3. The AirPlay server (streamer) receives this request via the wifi router over ethernet
  4. The AirPlay client exchange requests and responses via the wifi router, and agree the parameters of the data about to be streamed
  5. The streamer opens a channel to receive the data from the AirPlay client via the wifi router
  6. The AirPlay client downloads some or all of the track data and sends it to the AirPlay streamer
If that is the case with Källa, it challenges my mind how that scenario can be a better solution than Källa recieving the data directly from www. The AirPlay client aka middle hand - in this case an iphone, ipad or whatever mac - will now recieve all the digital information before transferring it to Källa.

The key, as I understand it is the new protocol, which is part of Källa and also a "Källa app?" on the AirPlay client. However, it seems to me that the hardware of the AirPlay client should also be a factor, or?
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Re: Källa overview

Post by teatime »

u252agz wrote: 2021-05-11 17:42 I am assuming that my KDS And sneakys work in a similar fashion to Kalla with the control point .
No, the Linn DS typically works in the UPnP/Spotify Connect way that springwood64 explained above, where the control point just tells the DS what resource to play, and the DS downloads it. After giving the DS a playlist, the control point can be turned off.

The DS can also be setup to handle AirPlay (or Songcast) streams, where a device (It seems wrong to call this device "control point", when it's actually part of the data transfer chain. A proxy, perhaps.) sends data to the DS, but that has generally been seen as the worse configuration. (It's certainly a more complicated data path, but the proof is in the pudding, complicated isn't automatically bad.)

Roon is another example of such a configuration, btw, where the Roon Core receives the audio data from, for example, Spotify, then transcodes it and sends it off to the Roon receiver, typically using RAAT or AirPlay.

Linn apparently rejected both these options, and instead favored Songcast Direct (*) for Roon integration.

u252agz wrote: 2021-05-11 17:42 In which case the choice of device for the control point will also affect musicality.
Well.. in the cases when the "control point" is actually a proxy (AirPlay, SongCast), probably. In the UPnP case, where it is just control, probably not.

(*) It would be interesting to know if Songcast Direct was considered for Källa. Both specs and example code is available, and it seems like a decent design on paper. Of course, good luck getting Apple to implement it...
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Re: Källa overview

Post by PetterS »

Just a thought on how important the protocol is, and also a possible explanation why many of us experience Spotify more musically engaging, despite the higher resolution in Qobuz.

My PRISMA NP5 is connected to www via ethernet and forum-recommended Netgear switch and transports the content to my dac via Spdif and a Linn digital cable. In the PRISMA application I can use my native Spotify app to control PRISMA NP5 with either Chromecast or Spotify Connect. Spotify Connect sounds way more engaging than Spotify with Chromecast.

Hence, it seems that the protocol is paramount for the musical outcome.

I read somewhere that Primare actually recommends PRISMA NP5 being connected to www via Wifi instead of ethernet. I will try that later on. It seems thru Wifi would have more similarities with the Källa solution.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by u252agz »

Thanks Teatime

I’m beginning to understand the differences between Linn and Kalla now.

My Linn streamers sound pretty terrible with AirPlay - I don’t think Linn spent much time optimising this pathway.

They do however sound great with the
Upnp method and just as important to me, offers a rock solid system which never waivers or fails.

I know that Kalla will sound fantastic as Do all Lejonklou products- but I am hoping the Airplay system and control point work as reliably as the Linn method.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by donuk »

u252agz wrote: 2021-05-11 17:42

I am assuming that my KDS And sneakys work in a similar fashion to Kalla with the control point .

In which case the choice of device for the control point will also affect musicality.
Perhaps someone can explain how control points can affect musicality when they are used simply to load a series of addresses on a conventional streamer and are then closed down.
I do understand the argument that open control points can create noise and take up bandwidth which arguably could affect musicality.

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Re: Källa overview

Post by springwood64 »

donuk wrote: 2021-05-14 13:22 Perhaps someone can explain how control points can affect musicality when they are used simply to load a series of addresses on a conventional streamer and are then closed down.
Not me!
donuk wrote: 2021-05-14 13:22 I do understand the argument that open control points can create noise and take up bandwidth which arguably could affect musicality.
I've given up on explanations and just work on the assumption that anything which is electrically, mechanically or acoustically connected (directly or indirectly) can have a degree of influence over musicality, which can be detrimental or positive.

I try to ignore the stories used as explanations and rely on the experimental results of others, or less frequently my own direct experimentation.

In my professional capacity I come across all the time credible simplified stories as explanations for IT related issues, and they are usually unhelpful.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by snatex »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-25 12:12Overview.gif
So when using an iPhone as a control point and the protocol is Airplay is the music data being transmitted from the phone to the router or Kalla? Or is it just sending a message to play the music and something native on the router or Kalla playing the music?

Does using Airplay on the DS follow the same path or procedure when using Airplay? My understanding is that when using Airplay with the DS all of the music data is being transmitted wirelessly from your phone to the DS and when using Qobuz or Spotify the music app is on the DS itself and you are just selecting the music on your control point.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by snatex »

Bump…
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Re: Källa overview

Post by Defender »

as I understand it the phone sends it through wifi with the airplay protokoll through the router to Källa.
It looks like one entity ;) more involved compared to the procedure NAS => Router => Linn DS … mmh actually not. Instead of the NAS you now have the phone IPhone/IPad => Router => Källa
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Re: Källa overview

Post by Peter Lanky »

I keep reading these posts and I'm still not certain. I have concluded that Källa is intended to play 'paid for' streamed services and not for ripped music stored on a NAS. If this is the case it would be of little use to me as things stand at present.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

Källa will play anything that your control point can play. To access files stored on a NAS, you use an appropriate app. Foobar2000 is said to sound slightly better than the alternatives, like for instance VLC or mconnect.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by Peter Lanky »

I think I still want to bide my time until android is fully onboard, not there would be much chance of securing a Källa in these early days anyway.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

We developed an Android version using Google Cast, but couldn't make it perform nearly as good. The decision was therefore made to exclude that option.
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Re: Källa overview

Post by Arjen »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-11-22 21:04 We developed an Android version using Google Cast, but couldn't make it perform nearly as good. The decision was therefore made to exclude that option.
And Fredrik, will that be the Android-end of it or will you give it another Android-chance?
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Re: Källa overview

Post by lejonklou »

For now, it's the end. If we come up with some radical new idea on how to implement it, we might give it a try.
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