Four years in the making

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Re: Four years in the making

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2021-04-20 03:08 Hi Fredrik,

I receive Qobuz and Spotify via WiFi to my MacBook Pro.

Can I directly connect the MBP with Källa via an ethernet cable?
You could, but it's the wrong way to do it.

Källa connects to your wireless router via an ethernet cable and to your HiFi system via unbalanced interconnects.

You MacBook Pro connects to WiFi. You choose Källa as playback.

Done!
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-20 13:05 You could, but it's the wrong way to do it.
Källa connects to your wireless router via an ethernet cable and to your HiFi system via unbalanced interconnects.
You MacBook Pro connects to WiFi. You choose Källa as playback.
Done!
So Källa is a network device?
What about AirPlay, must this be active too?

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Re: Four years in the making

Post by lejonklou »

Yes and yes
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by fatjulio »

What direction did you go for the DAC? R2R or a standard design?
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by markiteight »

Posts about Apple AirPlay™ have been split and relocated to the On the Inside forum.

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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Geoff »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-18 01:30
teatime wrote: 2021-04-18 01:07
lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-17 22:17 And you'll need an Apple device.
Wait, what!?

What could possibly create this requirement.. are you using AirPlay? That doesn't seem at all likely, but I'm wracking my brain trying to come up with any other explanation.. unless it's simply that the control interface is only realized as a Apple app. In which case it's technically possible that other platforms can also be supported down the line. I hope that's the case.
Källa uses the same basic communication protocol as Airplay™ does. But ours is written entirely in-house and tuned for maximum musicality. The difference between them is staggering. That's why I recommend an Apple device.

Cast, which is used on Android devices, has been tested but not incorporated because we haven't been able to make it nearly as good.
That rules out myself, and ninety or so percent of the planet. Sorry, I love you, but...no.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Spannko »

51% of the UK population have an iPhone, so from a user base perspective it’s a good decision to use AirPlay. But my guess is Fredrick isn’t really concerned about that: it appears that he explored the various options and chose the best sounding one.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Charlie1 »

I guess an ipad works just as well so that's a few more %
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by macrotech2 »

Just view an iPad as part of the purchase if you haven’t already got one. Hardly a major extra cost if it sounds as good as we expect.

Now I need to read up on Airplay to try and understand how this works. Will there be a Lejonklou App running on your device. How do I steam from my NAS and from Qobuz. I can’t work it out!
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by springwood64 »

macrotech2 wrote: 2021-04-21 08:31 Just view an iPad as part of the purchase if you haven’t already got one. Hardly a major extra cost if it sounds as good as we expect.
iPad / iPad mini can be bought for anywhere from £80 refurbished
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Geoff »

Spannko wrote: 2021-04-21 06:49 51% of the UK population have an iPhone, so from a user base perspective it’s a good decision to use AirPlay. But my guess is Fredrick isn’t really concerned about that: it appears that he explored the various options and chose the best sounding one.
https://www.statista.com/chart/22702/an ... countries/

Canada and Taiwan also around fifty. I'm surprised, I haven't kept up with these figures. Half of the American electorate voted for a short fingered vulgarian, Brexit was nearly evenly divided too. Hopefully they don't do to the relative openness of this protocol what they did to the headphone jack or the CD player. If they allowed me to browse the filesystem, or connect external memory devices to their overpriced, but sophisticated, personal computers I'd be more inclined to them. Before they killed the headphone jack, so many times I researched if I could live with their devices, but when I explored whether I could put up with one, there were just too many major roadblocks, and minor indignities.

Again, good luck in this Fredrik! I have no doubt you will have created a great musical device!
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-20 13:05 Källa connects to your wireless router via an ethernet cable and to your HiFi system via unbalanced interconnects.

Your [Apple device] connects to WiFi. You choose Källa as playback.
Hi Fredrik, do you plan on making any further recommendations regarding the network components, & configuration, involved in achieving the most musical results with Källa?
Previously there appears to have been general consensus that 108T & ~2.5m BJC LAN cables were a good start point... now add an Apple device as the Källa control point. If Källa & Spotify is already sounding better than the same album/tracks from a NAS, is that dependent on a particular router, possibly isolated from the wider home except for a shared Internet connection?
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by ThomasOK »

Fredrik threw this up while I was on my "days off" at home where I avoid forums (sorry all). But I thought I'd pay a visit between LP12s.

I am very excited to get my hands on a Källa (pronounced something like Shell-a, by the way) even though I'm not big into streaming. Obviously the emphasis is on engaging, musical perfromance and control should be very simple. I know there are anti-Apple people out there but I think that is missing the point. It is all about what provides the most musical perfromance and the Källa Protokoll for transferring the music is it. The Protokall data transfer requires an Apple device and it would be good if it didn't walk out the door taking the music with it. If you are willing to spend in the neighborhood of $8500 to $9000 on a unit to stream your music then adding a few hundred to maybe $650 for the remote control shouldn't be a problem. You can just get an unlocked iPhone or an iPad and be good to go. Don't use it for anything else if you don't want to.

A little summary is that the Källa is a single box streamer/DAC that uses the proprietary Lejonklou Protokoll for sending the music to it that requires an Apple device. It will be the same size as any of the Lejonklou big box units and will have no display nor external LEDs (so think Tundra without LEDs). Connections are a LAN Ethernet connection, which is required, AC socket and a pair of RCAs. It should sell around $8500 to $9000US but selling price will be determined when the actual costs to produce a production version are known, as always. It is probably also still at least a couple months away.

In my understanding it will not support streaming music from a NAS but will be able to play any streaming service, Internet radio, etc. and music stored on an Apple iDevice. I wouldn't expect a lot of tech talk on this as Fredrik wants to concentrate on the musicality, not the tech (as usual). So I don't think you will see discussion of the DAC or other particulars. As with all streamers it will be affected by its environment and this section is in part meant to be a place where discussions on best practices can be created to help everyone get the most out of their Källa, as is common on here. There are still lots of questions on what will work best, several of which I have asked Fredrik and I know that experimentation is ongoing in this regard. Unless we hear otherwise I still expect that a Netgear GS108T and Blue Jeans Ethernet cable are recommended accessories. But since a wireless transfer is involved I am wondering which WAP or router will be most musical and whether a separate subnet will be of value. It should all be interesting and I'm glad to be along for the ride.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by David Neel »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-21 23:24 In my understanding it will not support streaming music from a NAS
What does streaming from a NAS require that means it will not be supported?
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by Lego »

An unlocked phone!!!?? ...is that so you can use any mobile network 😁
I know that tune
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by springwood64 »

David Neel wrote: 2021-04-22 14:23
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-21 23:24 In my understanding it will not support streaming music from a NAS
What does streaming from a NAS require that means it will not be supported?
I suspect that if an Apple iOS app can play music on a NAS on the phone, then you can stream it via Airplay.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by macrotech2 »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-22 15:12
David Neel wrote: 2021-04-22 14:23
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-21 23:24 In my understanding it will not support streaming music from a NAS
What does streaming from a NAS require that means it will not be supported?
I suspect that if an Apple iOS app can play music on a NAS on the phone, then you can stream it via Airplay.
Agreed and confirmed. What I don’t understand is how this new protocol is implemented. Does the Airplay advertising by Källa enable the iOS device to transmit the information in the required format?
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by ThomasOK »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-22 15:12
David Neel wrote: 2021-04-22 14:23
ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-21 23:24 In my understanding it will not support streaming music from a NAS
What does streaming from a NAS require that means it will not be supported?
I suspect that if an Apple iOS app can play music on a NAS on the phone, then you can stream it via Airplay.
I believe you're right. It just does not directly support UPnP or otherwise streaming directly from a NAS in my awareness. I'm interested to know what app(s) allow this as I haven't tried it. Does iTunes allow you to access music on your NAS or is something else required?
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by ThomasOK »

Lego wrote: 2021-04-22 14:57 An unlocked phone!!!?? ...is that so you can use any mobile network 😁
Or no mobile network if you choose to use it just as a remote. In the US all iPhones now come unlocked standard unless you buy one on a payment plan through AT&T from what I read.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by macrotech2 »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-22 17:58
springwood64 wrote: 2021-04-22 15:12
David Neel wrote: 2021-04-22 14:23

What does streaming from a NAS require that means it will not be supported?
I suspect that if an Apple iOS app can play music on a NAS on the phone, then you can stream it via Airplay.
I believe you're right. It just does not directly support UPnP or otherwise streaming directly from a NAS in my awareness. I'm interested to know what app(s) allow this as I haven't tried it. Does iTunes allow you to access music on your NAS or is something else required?
MconnectLite does the job. Not the best but it works and is free. You can use to stream over UPnP and Airplay to available renderers. I used it to Airplay a podcast on my phone and from MimimServer on my NAS to my Vitus rd-101, which I didn’t even know supported Airplay until yesterday. Airplay from the NAS was lifeless and uninvolving compared to UPNP though.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by tokenbrit »

I think I'd want to play tracks and albums from my NAS - I'd be nervous relying on a streaming service and trusting that they will maintain their end of the musical bargain. If Källa doesn't play from NAS via UPnP, but can do via a UPnP to Airplay intermediary device, then that would be ok, as would copying library essentials onto an Apple device. Will be curious to know the musical impact of streaming via Apple device from NAS to Källa vs Airplaying from Apple device storage to Källa.
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Apple TV Delays Preamp

Post by Ron The Mon »

Apple TVs output AirPlay as well. An Apple TV 4K, wireless keyboard, and monitor cost about $300. In addition to Spotify, there are a lot of music apps available, plus dozens of HD TV channels.

The only aspect of AirPlay I don't like is the approximately two second time delay. Does this affect Källa?

Can Källa be directly connected to a power-amp? Removing a pre-amp would make it more affordable. A turntable plugged into a Mac computer could make a Källa one source for all.

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Re: Four years in the making

Post by John »

I think the 2 second delay with Airplay 2 allows multiple Airplay devices to synchronize together and play the same music. Will Kalla be able to group with other Airplay devices?
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by teatime »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-04-21 23:24 A little summary is that the Källa is a single box streamer/DAC that uses the proprietary Lejonklou Protokoll for sending the music to it that requires an Apple device.
This is rather strangely put, and, I suspect, borders on the incorrect.

Until Fredrik (or someone else who knows) sets the record straight, here's what I think is going on:

The Apple device plays the music using the Apple proprietary Remote Audio Output Protocol (RAOP) - one of the services found in the AirPlay technology stack. RAOP is basically the tried and true open protocols RTSP and RTP with added encrypted.

Apple probably never intended anyone but Apple to be able to create a device like Källa, but the encryption was broken many years ago, allowing the creation of a device that masquerades as an Airport Express. AirPlay 2 encryption was apparently also broken, but much later. This might suggest Källa is compatible with AirPlay 1 only, but this is wild speculation.

When Fredrik writes...
lejonklou wrote: 2021-04-18 01:30 Källa uses the same basic communication protocol as Airplay™ does. But ours is written entirely in-house and tuned for maximum musicality. The difference between them is staggering.
... I take this to mean they are using their own implementation of the RTSP & RTP protocols (and somehow get around the encryption), rather than using licensed libraries from Apple for RAOP. Because the former is much better.
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Re: Four years in the making

Post by lejonklou »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2021-04-22 19:48The only aspect of AirPlay I don't like is the approximately two second time delay. Does this affect Källa?
There is a delay of approx 1.5 seconds from pressing Play to when the sound starts. The same applies to when you press Stop. However, any video content is synched to the audio. So no problems there.

There might be exceptions, like for instance if I watch Apple TV on my old Panasonic plasma TV and route the sound to Källa, it sounds fantastic but doesn't synch well. Here the plasma is causing trouble. If I take the sound from the TV instead, it synchs perfectly (Panasonic apparently took care of that).
Ron The Mon wrote: 2021-04-22 19:48Can Källa be directly connected to a power-amp? Removing a pre-amp would make it more affordable. A turntable plugged into a Mac computer could make a Källa one source for all.
No, the analogue output of Källa is fixed volume. We did several attempts at adding digital volume control but eventually abandoned it as it invariably robbed the music of some of its magic.
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