Defender wrote: ↑2021-10-05 11:39 thank you jajo - how much performance hit do I have to expect? I know its a difficult question but maybe you have an idea

It is difficult to compare that way, but I would never bother with this kind of setup myself since Spotify sounds better and the interface is much more fun and easy to use.

I find most streaming services very enjoyable through Källa and the same goes for FLAC playback. It is only when you compare that you notice the differences and after you hear the best service, it is hard to bother with the others.

If you intend to only play FLAC from NAS, I would suggest not comparing it with Spotify at all.

Also, it could be worth the time to compare different apps that can play FLAC from NAS to find the best sounding one, if there is a difference. I only tried one since I am mostly interested in Spotify anyway.

thank you again - its not that I dont want to use Spotify (why would I limit my enjoyment) I just want to still have the NAS option in case the music I like to play is not available at Spotify or other topics which create issues when you depend on something.

Defender wrote: ↑2021-10-05 12:22 thank you again - its not that I dont want to use Spotify (why would I limit my enjoyment) I just want to still have the NAS option in case the music I like to play is not available at Spotify or other topics which create issues when you depend on something.

Thats very fair - and the FLAC route would probably be the best backup you could have since it would only rely on your local network being available.

Like I wrote previously - you can test this setup already today without Källa. If your iPhone can play the music through the app, then it would work with Källa too.

@Defender

Another app which should work in your case is the Lumin app:

https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-app.html

AFAIK, @macrotech2 does use it.

Matt

Hi Matthias,
I use the Lumin App already to stream from my NAS to the Akurate DS already but the classic UPNP way.

Defender wrote: ↑2021-10-05 13:12 Hi Matthias,
I use the Lumin App already to stream from my NAS to the Akurate DS already but the classic UPNP way.

All you need to do is to set the local phone as renderer instead of ADS - you should then hear the flac files play through the iPhone speakers. If you at this stage select "Källa" as audio output on the phone, it will play through Källa.

I've only just started reading this topic and had a very quick glance through the posts. 'Streaming is the future' is a statement made. It may well appeal for those starting their music collection or only have a few hard copies of albums, but for somebody who has been collecting music for 50 years, I already have most of the music I like.

If I am looking for new music, it is exclusively something well away from the mainstream, and I find a significant amount is not on any streaming services, so my value for money would be poor. I can't think of any mainstream music (likely to be heard on the radio) in the past 30 years.

Even then, assuming that a service never ended, 50 years worth with Qobuz would cost £7,800 and with Tidal £12,000. Then if you wanted it in your car you would no doubt have to pay for an additional wifi service, and the same with remote locations or abroad when you want to listen on your phone/tablet. Also, when there's no turning back, there will likely be other 'essential' costs creeping in. It just doesn't seem a good prospect as far as I can see.

@Peter Lanky,

even when using Källa with a NAS only it might be more musical than a KDS with NAS.

Matt

It might be…..You may be right, but …. The listening is the proof of all.

Peter seems pretty set against the idea so while it would be worth listening, and others have said that Källa gets more out of the music on their NAS than a KDS, I'm not sure that Peter wants to hear it - it doesn't have to be for everyone.

Not sure I understand the rant against an item you don't want to buy tho' - just don't buy it - and using a 50yr timeframe for projected costs seems a stretch, especially without offsetting against cost of maintaining or extending your collection in its current form...

That said, I hope we all have another 50yrs & more to enjoy our choice of music. Peace.

I think there's a note of caution here. Just saying "a NAS" I think is too simplistic.

Remember all the debate about various versions Hakai as a NAS and all the experimentation that went in to LSNAS? A NAS is an important component in the chain - as, I expect, is the tech used to rip CDs to a NAS in the first place.

In David Neel's system Spotify was the preference over his LSNAS. In my own system I found music from Melco was preferable to Spotify.

The whole chain continues to be important.

sunbeamgls wrote: ↑2021-10-21 09:22
In David Neel's system Spotify was the preference over his LSNAS. In my own system I found music from Melco was preferable to Spotify.

The whole chain continues to be important.

I have found that some music on my NAS is more musical than the recording available on Spotify, and vice versa. The chain also includes the source recording.

springwood64 wrote: ↑2021-10-21 09:30

sunbeamgls wrote: ↑2021-10-21 09:22
In David Neel's system Spotify was the preference over his LSNAS. In my own system I found music from Melco was preferable to Spotify.

The whole chain continues to be important.

I have found that some music on my NAS is more musical than the recording available on Spotify, and vice versa. The chain also includes the source recording.

A very good point, as does the compression level of that recording.

So many variables that need to be narrowed down for a like for like comparison, without even considering the effects of the network configuration. For example I thought I would just do a quick comparison of Qobuz vs NAS by comparing the same track I’d bought from Qobuz on my NAS vs streaming direct from Qobuz. Seems the most equal comparison to start with.

I’m using Mconnect (Matthias - Lumin can’t Airplay so no use here). Looking at the formats Qobuz is FLAC 96/24 but NAS is wav 96/24 because I’m using Minim server with transcoding (because wav sounded better than FLAC with a DS). I need to remove the transcoding for a better like for like comparison. Something to do later as I have to go out now.

Then I could ask does the Qobuz app sound better than Qobuz through MConnect. Does the comparison hold on a different iOS control point etc. etc.

This brings up interesting questions. Is there a preferred encoding format for Källa? What format(s) does Protokoll send to Källa? Does any format conversion affect the music?

macrotech2 wrote: ↑2021-10-21 10:19 What format(s) does Protokoll send to Källa?

AirPlay 1 I believe sends as ALAC, containing 44k 16bit PCM

Protokoll sends 16/44.1 PCM to Källa.

Thanks Fredrik.

So does the encoding of the source data and any required conversion affect the sound at all?

That's a complicated question to answer.

Källa can play any format that the app handles. I find that some higher resolution files sound better than the 16/44.1 version. In other cases, the CD format 16/44.1 is the best. It's all about the quality of the file and this has very little to do with the file format.

Regarding the transfer of data to Källa, we have tried lots of formats. The most musical result we ever achieved was with 16/44.1 PCM. It is really impressive how good 16/44.1 is when you do it right.

Thanks again Fredrik. It certainly is very impressive!

Have I missed an explanation why streaming from the NAS sounds worse that a streaming service?
Is it because of the extra network traffic required to transfer the data from the NAS to the wireless router, so it can then be broadcast over wi-fi to the control point?

I really must learn more about how all this stuff works!

Peter Lanky wrote: ↑2021-10-20 19:35 I've only just started reading this topic and had a very quick glance through the posts. 'Streaming is the future' is a statement made. It may well appeal for those starting their music collection or only have a few hard copies of albums, but for somebody who has been collecting music for 50 years, I already have most of the music I like.

If I am looking for new music, it is exclusively something well away from the mainstream, and I find a significant amount is not on any streaming services, so my value for money would be poor. I can't think of any mainstream music (likely to be heard on the radio) in the past 30 years.

Even then, assuming that a service never ended, 50 years worth with Qobuz would cost £7,800 and with Tidal £12,000. Then if you wanted it in your car you would no doubt have to pay for an additional wifi service, and the same with remote locations or abroad when you want to listen on your phone/tablet. Also, when there's no turning back, there will likely be other 'essential' costs creeping in. It just doesn't seem a good prospect as far as I can see.

Streaming is superior for finding non-mainstream music since it has more music than any record store on earth.

The biggest issue I've had with the streaming services is that they have been sounding too bad to give new music a fair chance. I still used it since many years to find new artists and albums and once I heard something I liked, I bought it on FLAC or CD/Vinyl.

Now, with Källa, it is very different. I now listen to music I have previously dismissed since the playback at the time was not good enough to do it justice. When I had my DS/NAS-solution, I listened to 80% favourite albums and 20% new music. I have noticed that now with Källa and streaming services, this figure has flipped the other way. Almost everything I listen to is new stuff that I would have never discovered without streaming services and this level of musicality.

So even though I have 2000+ vinyl records in the basement, Källa+Spotify has truly changed the way I listen to music and how frequently I discover new music. Well worth the fees for me. I would gladly pay the double or more for the enjoyment I get from this.

Also, the interface of Spotify makes it very easy to search for artists, albums and sometimes I even use their "recommendation stream" that is built once per week individually for me based on my listening history. I still prefer searching on my own, but the recommendations have been very enjoyable when I just want to listen and don't have time/energy to do the research myself.

I know that needs are different. As a non-mainstream listener, I just wanted to give my five cents because I really disagree with your conclusions.

jajo,
did you compare the Spotify macOS and iOS apps?
If yes, did you find differences in musicality?
Thanks

Matt

matthias wrote: ↑2021-10-21 14:01 jajo,
did you compare the Spotify macOS and iOS apps?
If yes, did you find differences in musicality?
Thanks

Matt

That would actually be a comparison of several factors - not just the software but also the hardware.

I will get an M1-powered Macbook in the end of November. Then it will be theoretically possible to run the iOS app on the Macbook and make a comparison between the iOS and macOS client. I will get back then with my findings.

There are surely differences between my Macbook i9 + macOS client vs iPhone 13 Pro Max + iOS client but both are sounding very good and I no longer care to choose control point based on performance. I just connect to Källa from the device I am currently using.

jajo wrote: ↑2021-10-21 13:39 Spotify has truly changed the way I listen to music and how frequently I discover new music. Well worth the fees for me.

+1
That even not having listened to Källa yet.

Matt

This afternoon, I've done a limited comparison of Qobuz, NAS drive and Spotify Premium and I have to say that you wouldn't be disappointed using any of them with Källa. To me the differences between them were small compared to the massive improvement over my old Vitus.

My network is probably a bit different to many:
BT Smart Hub Router -> Ethernet over mains (hall to front room) -> Uptone Audio EtherRegen switch.
Källa is fed from the B side port on the EtherRegen

I concentrated on two tracks:
Summon The Fire by The Comet Is Coming (96/24 FLAC on Qobuz and from NAS, Spotify doesn't tell me).
A good comparison as the NAS track was bought from Qobuz.
Smooth Operator by Sade (44/16 on Qobuz vs Spotify only).

There was much switching back and forth and re-listening with the conclusion given above.
However, I would rank as follows:
Summon The Fire: Qobuz better than NAS better than Spotify
Smooth Operator: Qobuz better than Spotify

For me, the musicians on Qobuz are more together, bass lines have more drive. Qobuz ekes out slightly more subtle detail and just made my foot tap more.
The NAS drive wasn't that far behind, with some slight loss like nuances of individual bass notes.
In comparison, the musicians weren't quite as together on Spotify, which sounded a little flat in comparison. Interestingly some of the cymbal lines in the sax solo stood out more on Spotify but to me they seemed too prominent.
All relative of course.

Your mileage may vary. I'll do some more comparisons but perfectly happy listening to Qobuz for now.

macrotech2 wrote: ↑2021-10-21 15:54 Källa is fed from the B side port on the EtherRegen

Send you PM

Matt