Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

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lejonklou
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

u252agz wrote: 2022-03-08 12:51I am not sure there are many manufacturers who realise the impact that software tweaks have on the musicality, and the ability and patience to use tune dem on each and every one of them.
Firmware has always had a small but fundamental impact on musicality. It was evident already with CD players. Remember the Unidisk firmware upgrades that were done by inserting a disc? Each and every one of those firmwares sounded a little different, even though some of the changes had nothing to do with the musical signal.

Much later I ran into it with Kikkin and Sagatun. There was a memory function planned for Sagatun, so that if you switched it off, it would return to the same volume and input upon startup. I also wanted to add a volume offset, so that for instance volume would always increase 8 steps when choosing input 2 and then drop 8 steps when leaving input 2. But it turned out that the memory in Sagatun needed to be empty. Inserting just a few numbers into the otherwise blank memory caused a very slight but annoying sense of detachment in the music. Electronically I could not understand it at all. But it was so easily reproduced and heard that the only possible decision was to scrap all ideas related to memory. It had to remain blank.

That the firmware in a digital music streamer affects its sound quality is probably easier to accept than the Sagatun example. After all, the streamer is assembling bits and converting them to music, so unlike the analogue preamp, it's digital in its very essence.

In practice, however, there are some effects of firmware that are quite mysterious. Every manufacturer of high quality streamers know this, but they don't want to talk about it. The common policy is to deny it, completely and always. This is understandable, because if you admit that your firmware update - one that contains only some insignificant bug fixes - actually makes your streamer sound a little different, you will have trouble on your hands. Because then you will have to start listening to every change you make. And you will need to decide whether the musical effect was for the better or for the worse. And if worse, by how much? Is the bug fix really worth that degradation of musicality? Maybe you can fix the bug in a different way and leave the music unaffected? In short: Working with firmware will be much, much harder. You will never know in advance how much effort any task is going to require.

Having followed the 'which streamer firmware is the best?' discussions on various forums, we decided right from the start that we'd do it differently with Källa. We chose the hard way, because it's more honest, more rewarding, better for owners and frankly, we felt that in order to make the very best digital music streamer, we have to keep everything optimized. There wasn't really any choice.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by u252agz »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-03-10 00:12
u252agz wrote: 2022-03-08 12:51I am not sure there are many manufacturers who realise the impact that software tweaks have on the musicality, and the ability and patience to use tune dem on each and every one of them.

Having followed the 'which streamer firmware is the best?' discussions on various forums, we decided right from the start that we'd do it differently with Källa. We chose the hard way, because it's more honest, more rewarding, better for owners and frankly, we felt that in order to make the very best digital music streamer, we have to keep everything optimized. There wasn't really any choice.

That's very reassuring and exactly what I would expect from Lejonklou.

My Linn streamers request upgrades on a regular basis, and I'm never sure there is an easy way of going back to the original, if the upgrade proves to be less musical.

As a result I am always conflicted when Linn Konfig suggests an upgrade and never sure whether to accept or reject the request.

Far better that the manufacturer does the Tune Dem and only releases musical upgrades- preferably more musical than the last one.

Keep up the good work with Kalla!
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

Time for an update:

Firmware v1.0.16 remains the standard firmware for Källa.
If you have two Källa on the same network, firmware v.1.0.19 allows you to change their network names. You need to email me to book this firmware change.

We have tried to improve the musical performance of 1.0.19, but have concluded that it can't be done. Therefore we decided to return to the fundamental firmware tuning process. This process involves tuning 380 parameters by ear. Yes, that's correct: 380 parameters need to be varied one step at a time, listening to music in between each step and deciding whether it's musically better or worse than the previous setting. Some parameters are simple, independent and easy to nail. Others have a vast range in which they can be varied, with several peaks in performance in between valleys of low performance, and can depend on other parameters and are therefore a challenge to optimize.

This tuning process will be done on a new firmware, which includes some safety, upgrade fallback and mains power shutdown protection details, as well as various technical features and goodies that might prove useful in the future. It's taken us a good while to think through all the possible directions Källa could be taken in the future and we have added support for every good idea we've come up with. The size of the firmware has grown considerably.

The fundamental firmware tuning process will start next week. I can't say how long it will take until we're done, as it depends on so many factors. My hope is that we'll end up with a firmware that sounds better than any previous version. When we have succeeded with that, I will start a new thread and recommend everyone to upgrade their Källa through the web interface.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by Spannko »

That’s great to hear fredrik! Tuning 380 parameters is going to be a mammoth task, but as the Neanderthal’s used to say, what’s the best way to eat a mammoth? ……… One bite at a time! I was going to wish you good luck, but really, I know there won’t be any luck involved!
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you Spannko!

It is a mammoth task, but just as you say the trick is to not be overwhelmed and just proceed one step at a time. It’s a lot of fun, actually. I find the comparisons rewarding in themselves (the musical kicks!) and in addition there’s the thrill of the final result.

We don’t know how good it will become, musically. And we don’t know how long it will take. I’m hoping for not too many interdependencies between the parameters. So I won’t say no to a bit of luck!
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by sunbeamgls »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-06-15 23:27 Time for an update:

Firmware v1.0.16 remains the standard firmware for Källa.
If you have two Källa on the same network, firmware v.1.0.19 allows you to change their network names. You need to email me to book this firmware change.

We have tried to improve the musical performance of 1.0.19, but have concluded that it can't be done. Therefore we decided to return to the fundamental firmware tuning process. This process involves tuning 380 parameters by ear. Yes, that's correct: 380 parameters need to be varied one step at a time, listening to music in between each step and deciding whether it's musically better or worse than the previous setting. Some parameters are simple, independent and easy to nail. Others have a vast range in which they can be varied, with several peaks in performance in between valleys of low performance, and can depend on other parameters and are therefore a challenge to optimize.

This tuning process will be done on a new firmware, which includes some safety, upgrade fallback and mains power shutdown protection details, as well as various technical features and goodies that might prove useful in the future. It's taken us a good while to think through all the possible directions Källa could be taken in the future and we have added support for every good idea we've come up with. The size of the firmware has grown considerably.

The fundamental firmware tuning process will start next week. I can't say how long it will take until we're done, as it depends on so many factors. My hope is that we'll end up with a firmware that sounds better than any previous version. When we have succeeded with that, I will start a new thread and recommend everyone to upgrade their Källa through the web interface.
Gosh. 380! = 9439316835166588679355422817582993728147585040326486153629486744000107042451273422596890478433656050455913473051288470757300282259578827911189652265929618392670347768565776056456178880039269308341239866431499078098523490078506190130407985252525636135193786198829090641815362363216117888376993862150253141598681319253319800626643011495191798466104859258782855568583233961379277709759040186502273447603796543582757569195314138939753825481933559477692292406151344190069436028376253313609144621004491024197105636065795833460770926183365568594536671912482069970502175600464159002786501236442930599191665933244481326462296135419186241841532016021543174375689904305314901752676716520939552948051229014980442638973334625000976547840000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 combinations.

That's going to take some time! :D
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by springwood64 »

I dont think your maths is right.

At worst all parameters are dependent and it's a 380 dimensional phase space.

At best all parameters are independent and it's 380 single dimension spaces.

We don't actually know the number of tests, because we need to know the number of values of each parameter for each of the sets of interdependent parameters: the extent of each dimension in the space.

Independent parameters will not combine with other parameters, so the number to test will be the number of values that the parameters hold. This can be reduced for parameters that have a single peak using strategies such as binary chop.

Dependent parameter values will need to be tested in all their permutations. Of course, you likely won't know which parameters are dependent until you start testing.

If you have to discover first the number of phase spaces and the parameters in those spaces, and then find the optimum in all the spaces, well that's a lot of testing.

Could be more tests than atoms in the universe: 10 exp 82 😁
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

He he. Thank you for sharing worst case scenarios when I’m trying not to be overwhelmed!

It’s not the first time we do this, so the procedure is familiar. Most parameters are independent (meaning we have previously not found them to depend on any other parameters). Many have only a few values. But some might prove complicated.

The whole tuning process relies on quickly being able to tell better from worse. We find that it really helps to do it together and essential to have zero prestige and always welcome differences of opinion.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by Defender »

I am sure you and whoever helps you have the best methodology and ears to decide. I had some moments where I thought I want to disagree with your opinion but found out later you managed to hear through things like run in which I am not capable of.
Current example is I gave a Naim Music Line with cable against text another try and it really sounds boring compared to the Clas Ohlson. You said it I couldnt believe it.
I know this task now is exceptionally more difficult but I know you are through a lot of
component testing (I remember your picture with the switches) many times so I think its one of your core competencies which we all enjoy after it finds its way into the product.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by sunbeamgls »

springwood64 wrote: 2022-06-17 17:38 I dont think your maths is right.

At worst all parameters are dependent and it's a 380 dimensional phase space.

At best all parameters are independent and it's 380 single dimension spaces.

We don't actually know the number of tests, because we need to know the number of values of each parameter for each of the sets of interdependent parameters: the extent of each dimension in the space.

Independent parameters will not combine with other parameters, so the number to test will be the number of values that the parameters hold. This can be reduced for parameters that have a single peak using strategies such as binary chop.

Dependent parameter values will need to be tested in all their permutations. Of course, you likely won't know which parameters are dependent until you start testing.

If you have to discover first the number of phase spaces and the parameters in those spaces, and then find the optimum in all the spaces, well that's a lot of testing.

Could be more tests than atoms in the universe: 10 exp 82 😁
My 380! was entirely tongue-in-cheek.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by Spannko »

How’s the firmware project coming along Fredrik?
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for asking, Spannko!

It’s progressing. Still quite a bit remaining.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by Spannko »

Great! Remember, all those wrong turns can be a bit disheartening, but they’re not failures, they’re just signposts, pointing you in the right direction!

PS I should mention that the reason this came to mind was because I’m experimenting with trying to build a pair of speakers at the moment. After reading as much as I could on the subject I decided that to improve the speakers I needed to double the wall thicknesses to reduce the panel vibrations. After doing so, there appeared to be a minor reduction in speaker “noise”, but there was a massive reduction in musicality. My “failure” was clearly pointing me in the opposite direction, so next up will be a thinner walled version and we’ll see where my failures point me next!
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

OK, so we we’ve done another late evening session of firmware tuning. Now only 90 parameters are remaining.

I think we’re on to something really good.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by Spannko »

Wahoo! Can’t wait!
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by ThomasOK »

That sounds very promising!
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

OK. All parameters optimised. Firmware 1.0.22 finalised. But we're not satisfied - more about that below.

This was a very educational exercise. It's impossible to describe in words all the different perspectives that we experienced while tuning all of these parameters. It's like being behind the control board in a studio, trying to fine tune the band that is tirelessly repeating the songs while we manipulate every lever and knob in front of us. Amplitudes, reverb, sharpness, depth of focus, attack and decay. And strange combinations of them all.

We devoted one evening at a time, doing as many as we could before fatigue set in. You really need to stay sharp to tell small differences apart. When we started hesitating, we stopped, discussed the results of the session and set a date for the next one.

What we set out to do was to fine tune a much larger firmware package, containing multiple functions that may or may not be used in the future. Essentially, we included everything we could imagine Källa becoming in many years from now.

It started out really disjointed musically, but when we'd gone through the majority of the parameters and I last updated you, it had become really good. I thought that if we can get the last details right, we've got a platform for a decade of developments and we'll beat the very precise and tiny firmware 1.0.16 musically.

But the large firmware of 1.0.22 has a problem: It isn't musically stable over time and environment. This is in stark contrast to 1.0.16, which appears to stand on a rock that goes to the core of the earth - it just always performs the same, no matter if the unit is cold or warm, or if the network is quiet or crowded. Every time we revert to it, it's like meeting the reference point.

We loved 1.0.22 in September. But when we brought it home, we experienced variations in performance that we weren't used to. It could sound terrific and later drift into states of feeling uninvolved. We have now understood that this is due to some large chunks of the code that isn't in the much simpler 1.0.16. So we can't release it. The only way forward is to sort out and remove the parts that cause these variations. And perhaps not include everything we can imagine Källa doing in the next decade, but rather focus on adding one feature at time, confirming it's stable before adding the next, and then redoing the whole firmware tuning from the start.

Although we spent a lot of time on this and didn't come up with a better firmware than 1.0.16, it isn't time wasted. It's actually very educational and also a lot of fun making all those comparisons. The tough part is that we have learned that there isn't really any short cut to tuning all parameters. When you add more code, there is no short cut as in only A, B, C and D need to be re-tuned. They are all inter-related, as in a big spider web.

Team happy. Work continues.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by springwood64 »

That sounds fascinating - and a learning experience I'm sure many on this forum would appreciate.

I have one observation, arising from your post, as a leader of software development teams over many years: I always discourage my developers from trying to guess and build for future needs.

Most of the guesses will be wrong, and likely won't cater for the needs that actually emerge.

The best strategy is to focus exclusively on high quality implementation of just the current needs, but make it easy and safe to change in the future.

This may be completely irrelevant to Kålla, but your post raised a familiar warning flag for me!
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by ThomasOK »

Very interesting! Sorry to hear we don't have a new firmware yet but glad to hear much has bean leaned that will be useful at some point. And glad a software wasn't released that was inconsistent over time and variations in environment.

Good luck with future developments.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for your comments, springwood64 and ThomasOK!

Thanks also for sharing your insights on software developments, springwood64! It makes a lot of sense to me.

With Källa, the total sum of possible features and directions are quite defined and limited in size and complexity, so we thought it would make sense to include them all.

Functionally, it worked flawlessly. But variations in musical performance was something we didn’t expect. The much simpler 1.0.16, 1.0.19 or 1.0.20 doesn’t have that. While I wouldn’t say simplicity is the key to musical performance from digital devices, we have learned that stability really is. The necessary processes need to be running in a smooth, perfectly timed and constant fashion. Not unlike currents and voltages running in analogue electrical circuits. That stability makes the music come alive.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by Whatsmynaim »

I don't know much about coding firmware but hear me out.
Would it be possible to split the different features into separate parts? We would get a menu when starting up Källa
and chose a mode with the feature we need. It would then run a smaller amount of code compared to the whole package and possibly be more stable when it comes to musical performance. This should also be beneficial for when your team is updating or adding a new feature. Since it's running in its own mode as a single application, you don't have to be afraid that it'll mess up the tuning of everything else.
Keeping things separate seems to work well with MM and MC phono stages. Not using a MM+MC design. Could this be a similar case?
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you Whatsmynaim!

Indeed that is what we’ve done. It still isn’t as stable as 1.0.16/19, for reasons that are too complicated for me to explain.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by springwood64 »

Is .16 still the current firmware version?
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by ThomasOK »

Yes, it is and likely to stay so for some time.
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Re: Källa firmware upgrade - postponed

Post by lejonklou »

springwood64 wrote: 2023-09-19 19:56 Is .16 still the current firmware version?
Yes. We've spent (another) several hundred hours on making a new firmware, but when we compare it to 1.0.16, there's still something missing.

1.0.16 has a character that we keep referring to as "the freight train", meaning that the pace in which the music is presented is extremely stable. All firmware versions after 16 appear to have shed some weight, causing a loss of stability in the speed of the train. I'm writing in metaphors here, but fact is something similar happens when you put a light platter on a turntable designed for a heavy platter (for instance putting a Linn Axis platter on an LP12).

Later firmwares do have some other good characteristics in terms of sound, but that freight train feeling is essential to us. And I believe to all owners of Källa.

We have concluded that we did the initial job with 1.0.16 too thoroughly for the firmware to be easily upgradable. Features are easy to add, but the decision was made from the beginning that we would not release a new firmware unless it sounded as good or better than the previous version.
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