Volumio and Airplay

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

Moderator: Staff

Post Reply
User avatar
springwood64
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 789
Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
Location: UK

Volumio and Airplay

Post by springwood64 »

Anyone using Airplay to stream to a Volumio Hakai?

Have you compared Airplay quality Vs the Volumio app or Spotify Connect?
Pete

Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
fatjulio
Active member
Active member
Posts: 159
Joined: 2012-01-13 23:22

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by fatjulio »

I've been trying over the last couple of days. It does seem to be better than from a NAS via network share playing the same file from the same location. It's a real hack at the moment to get anything to work.

I put iTunes on my laptop for a quick test, and it played to Volumio via airplay just fine, sounded good. It doesn't play flac, so not much use, and terrible to use.

I've been trying to get something working on my Hakai NAS, which is a straight Debian Stretch install without a desktop. I've currently got pulseaudio installed with the raop module to see airplay devices. The system can see Volumio as a device, and I can play a file to it via it's command line "play a file". It sounds good. I need an audio player that doesn't need a display, which I haven't found yet. I tried compiling and installing owntone, but it didn't install correctly, and doesn't work.

It would seem that sending the audio as a data stream via airplay, not a network negotiation via DLNA or CIFS/NFS, is better. I had a quick compare with Spotify Connect, which has similar but not quite as good improvements.
tokenbrit
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2012-03-22 19:47
Location: New England

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by tokenbrit »

fatjulio wrote: 2021-05-12 11:52 I've been trying over the last couple of days. It does seem to be better than from a NAS via network share playing the same file from the same location. It's a real hack at the moment to get anything to work.

I put iTunes on my laptop for a quick test, and it played to Volumio via airplay just fine, sounded good. It doesn't play flac, so not much use, and terrible to use.

I've been trying to get something working on my Hakai NAS, which is a straight Debian Stretch install without a desktop. I've currently got pulseaudio installed with the raop module to see airplay devices. The system can see Volumio as a device, and I can play a file to it via it's command line "play a file". It sounds good. I need an audio player that doesn't need a display, which I haven't found yet. I tried compiling and installing owntone, but it didn't install correctly, and doesn't work.

It would seem that sending the audio as a data stream via airplay, not a network negotiation via DLNA or CIFS/NFS, is better. I had a quick compare with Spotify Connect, which has similar but not quite as good improvements.
Thanks for sharing. Debian/MPD sounded better to me than Volumio, so my 'Hakai player' isn't really a Hakai, but I didn't realise Volumio supported Airplay... Even with that, it doesn't seem easy to leverage Airplay without an iDevice: limited to ALAC via iTunes, and Airplay from Android or Linux seems hack-ish if you want anything practical such as controlling from your laptop, tablet, or phone?

I'm looking into adding an Airport Express so would be curious if you find a way to play from Hakai NAS via Airplay.
jewa
Active Member
Active Member
Posts: 89
Joined: 2007-01-31 18:57

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by jewa »

I use shairplay to play the sound from my AppleTV > Hakai with no issues. Works great!
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Lego »

fatjulio wrote: 2021-05-12 11:52 I've been trying over the last couple of days. It does seem to be better than from a NAS via network share playing the same file from the same location. It's a real hack at the moment to get anything to work.

I put iTunes on my laptop for a quick test, and it played to Volumio via airplay just fine, sounded good. It doesn't play flac, so not much use, and terrible to use.

I've been trying to get something working on my Hakai NAS, which is a straight Debian Stretch install without a desktop. I've currently got pulseaudio installed with the raop module to see airplay devices. The system can see Volumio as a device, and I can play a file to it via it's command line "play a file". It sounds good. I need an audio player that doesn't need a display, which I haven't found yet. I tried compiling and installing owntone, but it didn't install correctly, and doesn't work.

It would seem that sending the audio as a data stream via airplay, not a network negotiation via DLNA or CIFS/NFS, is better. I had a quick compare with Spotify Connect, which has similar but not quite as good improvements.
It would be great to hear clips Fatjulio
I know that tune
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Lego »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-05-08 08:41 Anyone using Airplay to stream to a Volumio Hakai?

Have you compared Airplay quality Vs the Volumio app or Spotify Connect?
I'm not streaming with airplay ,but I'm now using Tinkerboard S streaming Spotify and the difference between that and Hakai is huge , Hakai sounds flat in comparison .
I know that tune
User avatar
springwood64
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 789
Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
Location: UK

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by springwood64 »

Lego wrote: 2021-06-12 20:53 I'm not streaming with airplay ,but I'm now using Tinkerboard S streaming Spotify and the difference between that and Hakai is huge , Hakai sounds flat in comparison .
That's interesting. Are you using Volumio on the Tinkerboard?
Pete

Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Lego »

Yes Springwood,picked up Tinkerboard S on Amazon for £54 ,look out for deals
I know that tune
Lemmy
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: 2009-05-18 18:50

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Lemmy »

Lego wrote: 2021-06-12 20:53
springwood64 wrote: 2021-05-08 08:41 Anyone using Airplay to stream to a Volumio Hakai?

Have you compared Airplay quality Vs the Volumio app or Spotify Connect?
I'm not streaming with airplay ,but I'm now using Tinkerboard S streaming Spotify and the difference between that and Hakai is huge , Hakai sounds flat in comparison .
How do you stream if not using Airplay? I’m asking because I’m a bit confused regarding how to play Spotify on Hakai/volumio. As I understand it I can do it by Volumio app, Spotify connect or Airplay? Is there a consensus on what sounds best?
User avatar
springwood64
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 789
Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
Location: UK

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by springwood64 »

Lemmy wrote: 2021-06-13 07:43
How do you stream if not using Airplay? I’m asking because I’m a bit confused regarding how to play Spotify on Hakai/volumio. As I understand it I can do it by Volumio app, Spotify connect or Airplay? Is there a consensus on what sounds best?
I have compared the following:

1. Spotify app on Hakai/Volumio
2. Spotify app on Android to Spotify Connect on Hakai/Volumio
3. Spotify app on AppleTV v4 Airplay to shairport on Hakai/Volumio

'2' was best.

I didn't check '1' Vs '3' because '2' was a clear winner.

The different options are very quick to test, so it's an easy comparison.

Airplay on AppleTV has a volume control, that at max is a lot louder than Spotify Connect on the Hakai, which implies Airplay is messing with the data it sends. Volumio is configured with no volume control on my Hakai
Pete

Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
User avatar
springwood64
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 789
Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
Location: UK

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by springwood64 »

Lego wrote: 2021-06-12 22:37 Yes Springwood,picked up Tinkerboard S on Amazon for £54 ,look out for deals
That sounds like a fun and low cost test. Any case recommendations?
Pete

Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Lego »

I know that tune
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Lego »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-06-13 08:24
Lemmy wrote: 2021-06-13 07:43
How do you stream if not using Airplay? I’m asking because I’m a bit confused regarding how to play Spotify on Hakai/volumio. As I understand it I can do it by Volumio app, Spotify connect or Airplay? Is there a consensus on what sounds best?
I have compared the following:

1. Spotify app on Hakai/Volumio
2. Spotify app on Android to Spotify Connect on Hakai/Volumio
3. Spotify app on AppleTV v4 Airplay to shairport on Hakai/Volumio

'2' was best.

I didn't check '1' Vs '3' because '2' was a clear winner.

The different options are very quick to test, so it's an easy comparison.

Airplay on AppleTV has a volume control, that at max is a lot louder than Spotify Connect on the Hakai, which implies Airplay is messing with the data it sends. Volumio is configured with no volume control on my Hakai
What were the differences Pete
I know that tune
User avatar
springwood64
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 789
Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
Location: UK

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by springwood64 »

Lego wrote: 2021-06-13 09:03 What were the differences Pete
Spotify Connect is full of life compared to the other two, and connects me immediately to the music.

I know I should have recorded and posted clips.... 🤣
Pete

Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
Lemmy
Member
Member
Posts: 33
Joined: 2009-05-18 18:50

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Lemmy »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-06-13 08:24
Lemmy wrote: 2021-06-13 07:43
How do you stream if not using Airplay? I’m asking because I’m a bit confused regarding how to play Spotify on Hakai/volumio. As I understand it I can do it by Volumio app, Spotify connect or Airplay? Is there a consensus on what sounds best?
I have compared the following:

1. Spotify app on Hakai/Volumio
2. Spotify app on Android to Spotify Connect on Hakai/Volumio
3. Spotify app on AppleTV v4 Airplay to shairport on Hakai/Volumio

'2' was best.

I didn't check '1' Vs '3' because '2' was a clear winner.

The different options are very quick to test, so it's an easy comparison.

Airplay on AppleTV has a volume control, that at max is a lot louder than Spotify Connect on the Hakai, which implies Airplay is messing with the data it sends. Volumio is configured with no volume control on my Hakai
Thanks!
The information from Volumio regarding this isn’t crystal clear.
Which Spotify Connect plugin (for Volumio) do you use? And which Volumio version?
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by matthias »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-06-13 09:19 Spotify Connect is full of life compared to the other two, and connects me immediately to the music.
I am wondering how Källa would perform with optimised Spotify Connect.......

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Lego »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-06-13 09:19
Lego wrote: 2021-06-13 09:03 What were the differences Pete
Spotify Connect is full of life compared to the other two, and connects me immediately to the music.

I know I should have recorded and posted clips.... 🤣
It's ok Pete,I believe you😁
I know that tune
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by FairPlayMotty »

I'll find one of my two Tinker Board S units and give it another listen. Which version of Volumio for the Tinker Board S is the best?
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
springwood64
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 789
Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
Location: UK

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by springwood64 »

Lemmy wrote: 2021-06-13 13:33 Thanks!
The information from Volumio regarding this isn’t crystal clear.
Which Spotify Connect plugin (for Volumio) do you use? And which Volumio version?
I'm using Volumio Spotify Connect2 1.0.5 plugin

Volumio 2.878
Pete

Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Lego »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-06-13 09:19
Lego wrote: 2021-06-13 09:03 What were the differences Pete
Spotify Connect is full of life compared to the other two, and connects me immediately to the music.

I know I should have recorded and posted clips.... 🤣
It's ok Pete ,I believe you 😎
I know that tune
User avatar
springwood64
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 789
Joined: 2008-10-13 18:19
Location: UK

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by springwood64 »

I have compared again Spotify AirPlay streamed from AppleTV via AirPlay to my Hakai against Spotify Connect streamed from the same AppleTV to the same Hakai.

In short, the AirPlay streamed version sounds terrible. I think mobile bluetooth into my car hifi sounds more enjoyable!

I wondered what could be contributing and if it could be improved - given that Källa can make AirPlay musical (https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... =13&t=5560) - so I took a look at the shairport-sync documentation.

It is worth summarising the rather complex chains involved in these two play-back scenarios:

Via AirPlay
Spotify App on Apple TV > AirPlay (over network) encoded as ALAC > shairport-sync on Hakai > ALSA audio driver > USB DAC > amp > speakers

Via Spotify Connect
Spotify App on Apple TV > Spotify Connect protocol (over network) encoded as AAC (I think) > vollibrespot on Hakai > ALSA audio driver > USB DAC > amp > speakers

At what point do the two paths become the same and we can probably ignore differences? On the face of it they have common components from the ALSA service on Hakai onwards, and are different up to that point.

ALSA supports either PCM or bitstream. The USB DAC just supports PCM, so it is reasonable to think that both routes send PCM to ALSA and the path is the same for both from that point onwards.

Shairport-sync and vollibrespot are two different Linux processes (registered as services) and independently send PCM to ALSA.

The other music service I use on Hakai is MPD. This service is not involved in either of the two scenarios I'm comparing. It also happens to sound better, but that's another story.

Returning to the original question, I am surprised at just how different AirPlay + Shairport-sync sounds compared to Spotify Connect + vollibrespot, and in particular how bad the AirPlay route sounds.

So how do these two services work? Well, as far as I can tell they work very differently.

AirPlay + Shairport-sync
According to the shairport-sync documentation, AirPlay running on the AppleTV takes control of timing of playback. It sends the encoded and streamed audio from the AppleTV to the shairport-sync process on the Hakai and in that data it includes timing instructions. If shairport-sync cannot output fast enough it will drop audio frames, and if it does not get audio in time from the AppleTV it will generate fake frames.

On the face of it, this sounds like a bad idea. Any variation in processing or communication between the AppleTV and shairport-sync could result in audio being either dropped or fabricated.

To minimise the risk of shairport-sync running out of music data, it buffers for a configurable period (currently 2 seconds). This buffering doesn't protect shairport-sync from dropping frames if it can't keep up with the AppleTV.

I'm not sure if I can persuade shairport-sync to report any frames dropped or injected to see if that is the cause of the poor sound quality.

If I can, I am tempted to fork the shairport-sync code and remove the timing behaviour to see if it sounds better.

Spotify Connect + vollibrespot
In contrast, Spotify Connect does not stream any audio to vollibrespot. Instead it tells vollibrespot to pull the audio from Spotify's servers. The AppleTV is not in the audio data path once vollibrespot starts playing music. Vollibrespot does not rely on the Spotify servers for timing the audio playback.
Pete

Linn Axis, Kinki, Källa (GS308T+Amplifi HD x 2 + BJC), Boazu, Espeks
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by matthias »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-08-26 08:45 I wondered what could be contributing and if it could be improved - given that Källa can make AirPlay musical (https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... =13&t=5560) - so I took a look at the shairport-sync documentation.
I am just wondering how Spotify Connect would sound on Källa with Fredrik's ability to make a protocol sounding musical.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Azazello
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 630
Joined: 2007-01-30 21:59
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Re: Volumio and Airplay

Post by Azazello »

I can report that I installed a Hakai -> JBL 308 system at my mothers house last week, using only Spotify and Airplay. I have to say that I found it surprisingly good at higher volumes! I'll try with a Kolektor as a Volume control, but i need to get hold of a decent pair of cables first.
Post Reply