Linux Kernels

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tokenbrit
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Linux Kernels

Post by tokenbrit »

Those of you running Debian (Buster) / Hakai, do you update / upgrade your OS regularly? If so, have you installed the latest kernel? Or do you leave well alone if it works? Curious if you've upgraded and noticed a change in musicality for better or worse...

Those using SnakeOil presumably get updates rolled out... Do you have a choice of kernels via the user interface? If so, do you hear any difference between versions?

Reason for asking is I just went from linux image 4.19.0-9 to -10 I wasn't expecting or listening for a change in musicality, but I'm struggling a little with the difference... Not sure if it's better, worse, or if I'm imagining it. I'm second guessing myself so was wondering if anyone else has experienced this.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by FairPlayMotty »

For SnakeOil OS the kernel isn't usually updated. Each version of the system automatically has the latest version of MPD but retains x copies of previous MPD versions. In a similar way, any other part of Linux which has an audio impact will be updated. Other features are added on a regular basis either as a result of user requests or from the forum.

You can opt to have a kernel built for you or build one yourself but that's not something I have done.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by Lego »

tokenbrit wrote: 2020-08-11 16:14 Those of you running Debian (Buster) / Hakai, do you update / upgrade your OS regularly? If so, have you installed the latest kernel? Or do you leave well alone if it works? Curious if you've upgraded and noticed a change in musicality for better or worse...

Those using SnakeOil presumably get updates rolled out... Do you have a choice of kernels via the user interface? If so, do you hear any difference between versions?

Reason for asking is I just went from linux image 4.19.0-9 to -10 I wasn't expecting or listening for a change in musicality, but I'm struggling a little with the difference... Not sure if it's better, worse, or if I'm imagining it. I'm second guessing myself so was wondering if anyone else has experienced this.
You should always do clips if you are changing someting Tokenbrit
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by tokenbrit »

I was really just asking whether anyone had noticed any difference in Hakai musicality between Linux kernels... So, that's a no then - lol :) (so far ;)
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by FairPlayMotty »

SnakeOil OS has changed kernel since I first used it. However I didn't notice any SQ difference. I notice more differences in the various versions of MPD. But to me they're relatively minor. By the time MPD got to version 21.x it would surprise me if it sounded significantly different.

There's a far bigger sonic difference between MPD and the other players on SnakeOil OS, like Logitech etc. but that's what I'd expect.

I may request a kernel and try it out.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by lejonklou »

tokenbrit wrote: 2020-08-12 16:29 I was really just asking whether anyone had noticed any difference in Hakai musicality between Linux kernels... So, that's a no then - lol :) (so far ;)
Yes there are significant differences. Everything matters on a HAKAI.

The thing is that the high musical performance of HAKAI is the sum of many, many details. Some may appear insignificant when judged in isolation, but when they are all right, the sum becomes bigger than the parts.

If one detail is suboptimal, another detail may appear less important. When two details are suboptimal, the third and fourth can seem questionable. And then very quickly the name HAKAI does no longer apply.

In hardware, the main problem is the availability of the now obsolete parts.

In software, the main problem is that we wrote our own and that Volumio became the only solution I had to offer (here in the open source version). And their old and buggy versions sounded much better than the few later versions I tried. With Volumio, all the fine tuning was lost, and there was no longer any clear answer to which Linux kernel sounded the best. And which MPD, where there are huge differences.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by tokenbrit »

Thanks Fredrik. I hadn't heard differences between kernels before, but had experienced differences between versions of MPD: everything came together nicely with MPD 0.21.11 on Stretch, and only seemed to get better upgrading to Buster, but something was lost with the latest Debian 10 Linux kernel update... Reverting to linux-image 4.19.0-9 brought the engagement back, so I can totally relate to your description about the sum being bigger than the parts: with the right version of MPD & kernel it all really works together, for me, and is worthy of the Hakai name. It's good to know that the system here is singing well enough to hear the software differences - subtle in sound; significant in musicality. Cheers.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by lejonklou »

That sounds good, tokenbrit! Just like you say, there are several details that are subtle in sound but significant in musicality. Especially when combined.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by FairPlayMotty »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-12 19:22
tokenbrit wrote: 2020-08-12 16:29 I was really just asking whether anyone had noticed any difference in Hakai musicality between Linux kernels... So, that's a no then - lol :) (so far ;)
Yes there are significant differences. Everything matters on a HAKAI.

The thing is that the high musical performance of HAKAI is the sum of many, many details. Some may appear insignificant when judged in isolation, but when they are all right, the sum becomes bigger than the parts.

If one detail is suboptimal, another detail may appear less important. When two details are suboptimal, the third and fourth can seem questionable. And then very quickly the name HAKAI does no longer apply.

In hardware, the main problem is the availability of the now obsolete parts.

In software, the main problem is that we wrote our own and that Volumio became the only solution I had to offer (here in the open source version). And their old and buggy versions sounded much better than the few later versions I tried. With Volumio, all the fine tuning was lost, and there was no longer any clear answer to which Linux kernel sounded the best. And which MPD, where there are huge differences.
I couldn't agree more.

To satisfy my curiosity I traced the dates of the MPD versions on the SnakeOil OS.

Assuming each older version of MPD is the latest release of that version, the following are on the SnakeOil OS. The most extreme difference by my ears is between the 2013 version and the most recent version. This is hardly surprising given the number of years between releases. There's one additional version of MPD on the system which I believe was requested by a user for DSD.

v0.17 2013
v0.19 2016
v0.20 2018
v0.21.22 2020

Given the number of years that MPD has been in development I would expect subsequent releases to be making relatively minor changes.

Agent_Kith is open to adding additional versions which acts as a safety valve if a new release sounds terrible. That's not been my experience thankfully.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by lejonklou »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-08-12 22:19 I couldn't agree more.

To satisfy my curiosity I traced the dates of the MPD versions on the SnakeOil OS.

Assuming each older version of MPD is the latest release of that version, the following are on the SnakeOil OS. The most extreme difference by my ears is between the 2013 version and the most recent version. This is hardly surprising given the number of years between releases. There's one additional version of MPD on the system which I believe was requested by a user for DSD.

v0.17 2013
v0.19 2016
v0.20 2018
v0.21.22 2020

Given the number of years that MPD has been in development I would expect subsequent releases to be making relatively minor changes.

Agent_Kith is open to adding additional versions which acts as a safety valve if a new release sounds terrible. That's not been my experience thankfully.
With what do you agree exactly?

HAKAI was not developed to run on SnakeOil OS and therefore it can strictly speaking not be considered a HAKAI. Agent Kith may be the nicest guy on the planet, but he doesn't use the Tune Method. Therefore the results will be unpredictable. I have not read about any thorough evaluation of the musical abilities of SnakeOil and neither have I heard any clips that tells me it's the right choice. Small differences in software can make or break the musical performance.

I've been hesitating for a long time about what to do with the Oz streamer threads, as I want the HAKAI section of the forum to stay on a well evaluated track. I think for now I will start with some editing of the thread names, in order to make it more clear what is what.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by FairPlayMotty »

"Everything matters on a HAKAI."

The Hakai started as a Volumio only piece of HiFi.
Not long after the Debian Stretch movement I discovered the SnakeOil OS which gave me and others access to MPD, several other players, Minimserver, LMS etc.

It's so long ago that I compared my Hakai with Volumio and MPD via the SnakeOil OS I can't remember if I did clips or not. I would be more than happy to do so. But it wasn't even a close contest between MPD and Volumio. There was a night and day improvement in musicality when using the SnakeOil OS.

Agent_Kith has helped numerous people on this forum to develop a Hakai and/or a Hakai NAS and has helped people with problem solving and adding features to the software to aid their use -things like adding Spotify Connect functionality etc.

People in the HiFi world are referenced week in and week out on this forum as evidence, references etc. I have yet to find one of those external references that uses the Tune Dem method. Are these people now considered irrelevant?
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Was Debian Buster tune demmed?
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by lejonklou »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-08-12 23:43 The Hakai started as a Volumio only piece of HiFi.
Wrong. The software of HAKAI is Volumio. Period.

HAKAI is the name of my streamer project, made public on this forum when I realized that I couldn't make a commercial product of it.

You have a lot of enthusiasm, FPM, which I find inspiring. What is required to further develop HAKAI, however, is a strict methodology and extreme attention to detail. Otherwise the project quickly goes off the rails.

You can give your streamers any name you wish, but when you change the specifications they are no longer HAKAIs.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by markiteight »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-08-12 23:43 ...I can't remember if I did clips or not. I would be more than happy to do so.
Please do!
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-08-12 23:43 Are these people now considered irrelevant?
No.
lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-12 23:15 Therefore the results will be unpredictable.
Unpredictable ≠ Irrelevant.
lejonklou wrote: 2020-08-13 11:01 You can give your streamers any name you wish, but when you change the specifications they are no longer HAKAIs.
I use SnakeoilOS because I can get it to work. Just installing Volumio is beyond me, let alone getting it to function, and a functioning streamer is far more musical than none!

Now to think up a name for what is (to misquote Douglas Adams) almost, but not entirely, unlike HAKAI.
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by springwood64 »

markiteight wrote: 2020-08-16 23:34 Now to think up a name for what is (to misquote Douglas Adams) almost, but not entirely, unlike HAKAI.
Snakai?
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by maffe »

@markiteight: What part of installing Volumio don’t work? Maybe there’s help to find here😊
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Re: Linux Kernels

Post by FairPlayMotty »

springwood64 wrote: 2020-08-17 10:36
markiteight wrote: 2020-08-16 23:34 Now to think up a name for what is (to misquote Douglas Adams) almost, but not entirely, unlike HAKAI.
Snakai?
I think Fredrik is right. His original work is the HAKAI and will remain unchanged for posterity.

If it was my forum I would go further than Fredrik did with the changes to the HAKAI topic. I believe that the original HAKAI thread plus HAKAI-relevant topics like the Gigaport etc. should be under the HAKAI heading. And all the alternatives like Debian, SnakeOil OS, etc. should be under a separate heading like Alternative Streamers. For me that would be a clearer differentiation.
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