Snakeoil OS

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

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FairPlayMotty
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-16 18:07

I'd tell her to colour each wheel spoke differently for every Debian core utility Ubuntu uses. See if she runs out of spokes ;)
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by markiteight » 2019-03-16 23:50

tokenbrit wrote:
2019-03-16 17:47
" .. what about this wheel thingy? It sounds a terribly interesting project.”
“Ah,” said the marketing girl, “well, we’re having a little difficulty there.”
“Difficulty?” exclaimed Ford. “Difficulty? What do you mean, difficulty? It’s the single simplest machine in the entire Universe!”
The marketing girl soured him with a look “All right, Mr. Wiseguy,” she said, “you’re so clever, you tell us what colour it should be."
;)
A little Douglas Adams in the morning always makes the day just a little bit brighter. Thanks for that.

Back to business. In character with my propensity for encountering every possible problem, I've encountered another problem. I downloaded the trial version of dbPoweramp and converted a couple files from AIFF to FLAC and sent them off to my NAS. Is there something else I should be doing to make the new files accessible? I can see them in the directory tree but I can't find them in Kazoo. The album file is named the same as the original file but with "...FLAC" at the end for ID purposes. The flacified files reside within the respective artist folders along side their AIFF counterparts. Their presence couldn't be more obvious, but Kazoo isn't seeing them.

I did find one album I already had in FLAC format. It's a vinyl rip I made a few years ago using Audacity, so it's a native FLAC file and came to reside in the NAS along with all the rest of my music files during the initial transfer. Gave it a listen-to annnnnd...no change. It behaves the same as the AIFF files. I'm reserving judgement until I have more examples to try. One sample does not a conclusion make.

But still...grrrr.

FairPlayMotty
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-16 23:55

I found Kazoo hard work.

Did you rescan your server software?
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by markiteight » 2019-03-17 00:09

FairPlayMotty wrote:
2019-03-16 23:55
Did you rescan your server software?
¿Que?

FairPlayMotty
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-17 01:25

With LMS or Minimserver you have to rescan after each file load/change/delete to see the update on the control point.
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by markiteight » 2019-03-17 03:09

FairPlayMotty wrote:
2019-03-17 01:25
With LMS or Minimserver you have to rescan after each file load/change/delete to see the update on the control point.
Gotcha. That worked.

And it worked.

Files converted to FLAC play normally. Out of curiosity I ran an album through dBPoweramp without changing formats in order to see if the AIFF -> FLAC was the solution or if simply washing the file through dBPoweramp would affect the same result. It didn't. So converting to FLAC appears to solve my playback problem.

Unfortunately it also kills the tune. Much experimenting needed to figure out where to go from here.

While messing around in dBPoweramp I stumbled across its HDCD decoding feature. I haven't heard anything about HDCD since Microsoft bought the rights from Pacific Microsonics many years ago. Curious, I applied it to a file ripped from an HDCD CD and compared to without. It also harms the music. I have no idea if the HDCD encoded data survived the conversion to AIFF so it may have just been applying the filters to a more-or-less standard 16 bit file, but dBPoweramp says the filters will only function when the encoded data is present so it's okay to just leave it on. Don't.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-17 07:49

While messing around in dBPoweramp I stumbled across its HDCD decoding feature. I haven't heard anything about HDCD since Microsoft bought the rights from Pacific Microsonics many years ago. Curious, I applied it to a file ripped from an HDCD CD and compared to without. It also harms the music. I have no idea if the HDCD encoded data survived the conversion to AIFF so it may have just been applying the filters to a more-or-less standard 16 bit file, but dBPoweramp says the filters will only function when the encoded data is present so it's okay to just leave it on. Don't.
HDCD is old tech now. I sold my twenty year old Linn Ikemi which had HDCD. Can't think of a single HDCD (I had a few hundred) that isn't remastered & improved.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-18 01:35

markiteight wrote:
2019-03-15 03:34
No trash can is present unless I click on "Add Mount Point". Is there something missing?
Looks like you have already specified those mount points during the installation stage (GUI install). If you want to remove those entries, you have to do so by editing the file "/etc/fstab". Remove those entries manually, reboot the system and then you use the Snakeoil WebApp to configure your drives.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-18 01:39

David Neel wrote:
2019-03-15 13:42
I can't see how to get both upmpdcli AND MPD enabled. They are mutually exclusive choices as Server, and only upmpdcli is listed under Client. When selected, it is not recognised by the control point.
Selecting upmpdcli will automatically start MPD.

I'd improve the GUI to make it clearer in the next version.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-18 02:26

fatjulio wrote:
2019-03-16 01:21
Initial listening impressions, I like the plain Debian Stretch install better. Richer sounding and more musical.
That's a fair call. I reckon there's room for improvement in Snakeoil too.

The idea for snakeoil is, make a few options and you get a "richer sounding and more musical" experience. Change a few other options and you turn that into a "100% analytical machine". Tweak something else yet again and it'd be a "audio illusion engine".

That's the goal anyway - every thing in Snakeoil OS is still focused on absolute audio quality - but the user is given the power to define what their vision of "absolute audio quality" is. I'm simply the facilitator between the computer and the audio system.

While the focus is till on you the audiophile. It's also important that once you discover a magical software setting and hardware, share them so that others can replicate. From replication, comes improvement.

If the concensus is Debian Strech is better. Then the next ISO will be on Debian Stretch.

Sadly there are people out there who are convinced bits are bits. That all computer players, or operating system sound the same. It's pretty hard to get the ball rolling when the current world concensus is all computers sound the same... :D

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-18 02:55

FairPlayMotty wrote:
2019-03-17 07:49
HDCD is old tech now. I sold my twenty year old Linn Ikemi which had HDCD. Can't think of a single HDCD (I had a few hundred) that isn't remastered & improved.
Off topic a tad, play this HDCD if you have it: https://www.discogs.com/Yim-Hok-Man-Mas ... se/9919338

I have 5 versions so far - SACD, K2HD (2 versions), Redbook and HDCD.

HDCD is the best rendition. Even when playing this on a Redbook only CDP. I have a list of tracks I'm using to tune the Snakeoil default house sound, one of those tracks is track #1 from this HDCD album.

So far I think this is the only HDCD I like. Note the warning label at the back of the CD though

also, @markiteight, check your DSP settings when doing media conversion from AIFF->FLAC. I'm not sure if replay gain (or other DSP) is applied or not when converting. Have a check of that first. Next, experiment with different players and see which one gives you the sound you prefer.

Sometimes things sound worse because your system is now more revealing. With dbPowerAmp and foobar, there is a plugin to calculate the dynamic range. In general,, check converted tracks with a DR score of 12 or higher.

Note that this DR number is indicative but not authoritive. Context is important. There are still tracks with high DR numbers that sound bad, and of course low DR numbers that sound amazing.

An example is track #1 from the above HDCD. IIRC it has a DR rating of 8. The reason for that rating? The drummers only apply 3 methods when attacking the drums - loud, louder and loudest!

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-18 10:41

Off topic a tad, play this HDCD if you have it: https://www.discogs.com/Yim-Hok-Man-Mas ... se/9919338

I have 5 versions so far - SACD, K2HD (2 versions), Redbook and HDCD.

HDCD is the best rendition. Even when playing this on a Redbook only CDP. I have a list of tracks I'm using to tune the Snakeoil default house sound, one of those tracks is track #1 from this HDCD album.
There ought to be a Hakai directory for music suggestion. Extra points for new music suggestions - cheers Kith!
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-18 10:43

The idea for snakeoil is, make a few options and you get a "richer sounding and more musical" experience. Change a few other options and you turn that into a "100% analytical machine". Tweak something else yet again and it'd be a "audio illusion engine".
That objective and your professionalism make Snakeoil OS what it is - the best of breed in my view!
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by Lego » 2019-03-18 12:26

fatjulio wrote:
2019-03-16 01:21
Initial listening impressions, I like the plain Debian Stretch install better. Richer sounding and more musical.
That is impressive Fatjulio I've usually found a more rich sound leaves things less musical, do you have any comparative clips so we can compare, seeing that statements about sound quality differences without substantiating it isn't allowed here anymore
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by woodlands » 2019-03-18 19:11

On another subject to do with snakeoil - has anyone else noticed that Spotify Connect
as part of snakeoil, does not load as a Music Server, despite not showing any errors.
I have tried on two different Hakai motherboards without success.
Anyone know what I am doing wrong ?
Philip

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by kallesprätt » 2019-03-18 21:20

woodlands wrote:
2019-03-18 19:11
On another subject to do with snakeoil - has anyone else noticed that Spotify Connect
as part of snakeoil, does not load as a Music Server, despite not showing any errors.
I have tried on two different Hakai motherboards without success.
Anyone know what I am doing wrong ?
Philip
Take a look in this thread:
https://www.snakeoil-os.net/forums/Thre ... ifyConnect

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by markiteight » 2019-03-19 00:05

agent_kith wrote:
2019-03-18 02:55
also, @markiteight, check your DSP settings when doing media conversion from AIFF->FLAC. I'm not sure if replay gain (or other DSP) is applied or not when converting. Have a check of that first. Next, experiment with different players and see which one gives you the sound you prefer.
Will do. I know dBPoweramp contains these options but I assumed they are disabled by default. If not, that's an annoying and unwanted "feature." I'll poke around and see what I find.
agent_kith wrote:
2019-03-18 02:55
Sometimes things sound worse because your system is now more revealing. With dbPowerAmp and foobar, there is a plugin to calculate the dynamic range. In general,, check converted tracks with a DR score of 12 or higher.

Note that this DR number is indicative but not authoritive. Context is important. There are still tracks with high DR numbers that sound bad, and of course low DR numbers that sound amazing.

An example is track #1 from the above HDCD. IIRC it has a DR rating of 8. The reason for that rating? The drummers only apply 3 methods when attacking the drums - loud, louder and loudest!
This confused me a bit the first time I used dBPoweramp. It asked me to set a "level" for dynamic range with a choice of arbitrary numbers and "unlimited." I set it to unlimited. After all, FLAC is lossless, or at least it's supposed to be. Limiting the dynamic range in any way alters the data from the original and is no longer (at least by my definition) lossless.

Or is FLAC lossless in the same way USB is universal? I.E. not really.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-19 03:00

FairPlayMotty wrote:
2019-03-18 10:41
There ought to be a Hakai directory for music suggestion. Extra points for new music suggestions - cheers Kith!
Some music is really useful when tuning/evaluating/auditing audio systems.

The stock Snakeoil sound is pretty much focused on vocals and pin-point localisation. The cost of that is the bass and lower frequencies are less emphanised. E.g. with this track, while the bass is not as pronounced with the war drums, if your speakers are positioned right, you can really visualise where the drums are, and the scale and size of them. You'd also be able to visualise the drum's relative position in the sound stage. Look into the CD booklook to see how the drums are setup, if you setup your sound system correctly - that is actually the setup you just "audio visualised"!

Change to another kernel, and you might get more bass, but lose that pin point precision, the drum hits may have more impact, but you can't really localise where some of the drums are in the sound stage.

Another piece of evaluation music is Stan/Getz "Girl From Ipanema". If you listen to all the various masters, none of them makes sense. Either Asturd, or the instruments seems off.

If you still have a CDP, compare these two tracks against Snakeoil (MPD or LMS/Squeezelite). Also compare other audio OS against this distro.

For some people - Snakeoil running MPD or LMS/Squeezelite will be more resolving than most. You can hear details in the recordings even the audio engineers missed.

I'm really a lazy person. Lazy people don't want to spend time and re-invent wheels.

Reason why I don't write my own music software is because MPD and LMS/Squeezelite already met my requirements. Reason why I have to custom roll my own OS? Because none of the distros out there is good enough.

Honestly don't understand why software changes can make a difference. Tuning this is more art than science, and unfortunately very time consuming. And worse, tweaking often involves about giving something up for something else. This is why Snakeoil is so flexible with tweaks - it's effectively handing the power of choice back to the audiophiles (i.e. choose your own poison :p).

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-19 03:14

markiteight wrote:
2019-03-19 00:05
This confused me a bit the first time I used dBPoweramp. It asked me to set a "level" for dynamic range with a choice of arbitrary numbers and "unlimited." I set it to unlimited. After all, FLAC is lossless, or at least it's supposed to be. Limiting the dynamic range in any way alters the data from the original and is no longer (at least by my definition) lossless.
Have to try with processing on and then off when doing conversion, and find what you prefer. It's really a YMMV thing.
markiteight wrote:
2019-03-19 00:05
Or is FLAC lossless in the same way USB is universal? I.E. not really.
Try XMMS on Snakeoil. XMMS is very old player, it's also the reference FLAC player. Compare the music played via XMMS, versus other software and find your own answer. Every individual listens in their own unique way, there really is no right or wrong. Focus on yourself, try and identify your body's reactions for the answers. e.g. do you find hair raising on the back of your neck? Go with the solution that gives you that hair raising experience.

In time you're realise your body actually build up an immunity. What was a hair raising experience before evokes no reaction now. Reason for this is your body is already senitised to the stimulants and have built resistence against it.

This is not always true though, there will be some rare equipment or tweaks that will give you a hair raising experience every time (even when playing the same music). You have to be self aware and recognise what you're body is feeding back to you.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-19 05:54

The Chinese drumming track is recorded very well and is a real workout for HiFi - thanks for mentioning it. The oddness of the Getz/Gilberto track was lost on me before but I agree with you. Many recordings have either errors with mic placement/mastering or both. Having proper reference recordings you know well and trust is crucial to me for proper evaluation of my system. A go to recording for HiFi stores in the vinyl days was the first album by Rickie Lee Jones. It's a stellar session by a brilliant line up of session players and stars. The early original CD was terribly mastered but the 2012 SHM-CD was remastered and sounds magnificent (The SHM - Super High Material part seems to me to be marketing spin but they did a wonderful job of remastering the CD). Each time I listen to my system that recording makes me smile.

The trade-off between musicality and precision is in HiFi for life I think but the Hakai makes a better job of getting the balance right than any source I've heard. My turntable is great but rarely used these days and the high end Marantz universal player I kept sounds bad compared with the Hakai. Digital disc spinners are history for me which is a huge leap forward.

Your art/science comment is bang on the money! This is more art than science though the science of simple but musical computers giving great sound has truly shocked me. My gratitude to Fredrik and the Lejonklou site is profound.

This has and continues to be an unexpected and wonderful sonic adventure for me.

Thanks again for your ongoing help Agent Kith - your contribution is fantastic.
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by David Neel » 2019-03-27 20:32

Currently using Snakeoil as the OS for my NAS - Snakeoil and minimserver are maybe a little better than Win7 and Asset UPnP. At any rate, I've no desire to revert!

Does anybody have the command line instructions to install Asset and then start on bootup? That way I can compare minimserver and Asset.

Thanks!
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by Lego » 2019-03-29 10:14

David Neel wrote:
2019-03-27 20:32
Currently using Snakeoil as the OS for my NAS - Snakeoil and minimserver are maybe a little better than Win7 and Asset UPnP. At any rate, I've no desire to revert!

Does anybody have the command line instructions to install Asset and then start on bootup? That way I can compare minimserver and Asset.

Thanks!
You're a glutton for punishment David, I take it there's no info online. Probably best asking the Agent in that case.
I know that tune

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by David Neel » 2019-03-29 20:54

Lego wrote:
2019-03-29 10:14
You're a glutton for punishment David, I take it there's no info online. Probably best asking the Agent in that case.
To take those in reverse order: you're right, I could ask Agent Kith, I was just reluctant to engage on another forum for several reasons; yes, there should be info online, it's the way I've got Linux answers in the past, this was my lazy man's way of asking but I will now revert; and to take the first observation - you're right! I vacillate between determination to master the intricacies of Linux and throwing my toys out of the pram because I fail.

In the event that the men in white coats don't find me, I reserve the right to spend yet more time proving that I am technically incompetent.
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by NinthWave » 2019-04-02 02:46

@Agent_Kith

Could you take a look at this that I think would most please HAKAIers

https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... =25#p39106

Nicolas
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by Lego » 2019-04-03 22:37

NinthWave wrote:
2019-04-02 02:46
@Agent_Kith

Could you take a look at this that I think would most please HAKAIers

https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... =25#p39106

Nicolas
Are you OK? Is Sopper holding a gun to your head, don't say anything just nod we can get the police. This was Soppers last request and then nothing. Agent Kith can't help you I'm afraid.Dont worry we understand.
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