HAKAI playground

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Discodave »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-25 14:20 Comparison of Volumio (MPD 0.21.16, Intel 320 160GB SSD) and SnakeOil (MPD 0.21.22, Intel 320 120GB SSD)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kmzqafgr6zeilig/3B.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xflwrt20eo8014b/3C.mp4?dl=0
Clip 2. No doubt for me. More musical with the bonus of sounding better too.

Enjoyed Clip 1 has to be said.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by springwood64 »

Clip 2 is volumio

I had been pretty happy with SnakeOil. Tweaking the set up had made it very enjoyable.

But Volumio is much more involving.

I notice that Volumio turns half the RAM into a Ramdisk and is slower to boot than SnakeOil. Maybe Volumio loads entirely into RAM. Perhaps this contributes to the big difference between the two.

MI8s experiment with NAS Vs USB is interesting, as I have experimented with different arrangements for delivering the files to the player, but haven't heard differences that are compelling.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Spannko »

Markiteight: first clip
Springwood64: second clip

Interestingly, I listened to S64’s clip through my phones speakers in a noisy environment so I had the volume on full with the phone about 100mm away from one ear. Under these circumstances the “sound” was definitely low-fi, but there was still a very clear musical difference, with the first clip sounding like the band were bored and just going through the motions, and the second clip sounded like I was eavesdropping on a band having a right old hooley in the room next door. I wanted to gate crash and throw a few steps down!

It’s the first time I’ve used that technique, but it certainly helped me to focus purely on the music.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by springwood64 »

I used spannko's method. New sounds more alive and engaging. I want to keep listening. Old by comparison sounds a bit dull and lifeless, though still enjoyable.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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markiteight wrote: 2021-03-25 04:56 Here are a couple clips comparing HAKAI in "normal" configuration (HAKAI based NAS, Netgear GS108t, BJC cables) vs. the same file played directly into HAKAI via a USB thumb drive. Which do you prefer?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yai65spsctmem ... 3.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e237ukf5z6x13 ... F.MOV?dl=0
Again, using Spannko's method, I enjoyed both but preferred the bass line on the second. More funky.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by beck »

Prefer old.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by markiteight »

This one's a bit tricky because New seems to be a bit more 'hi-fi' than old, yet I still find it easer to follow the tune. I'm leaning toward New.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by markiteight »

Since it's been so long since I built my HAKAIs I figured it would be prudent to look through Fredrik's first posts to see if there was anything I missed or forgot. Sure enough I found something:
lejonklou wrote: 2018-08-11 20:05 HAKAI is controlled with your phone, tablet or computer by a web interface. Use a browser of your choice and enter the IP adress of HAKAI (which you will need to surf to your router to find). The user interface will appear in your browser window.
I didn't fully appreciate the difference between the method Fredrik describes (file share) and using a control point like Kazoo (server/control point) until tokenbrit explained it to me (it took several attempts before the concept began to stick to my think thing). It sounds like using Volumio's web interface is a part of the HAKI recipe, yet it seems that most people are using a control point. So here's a comparison of Volumio reaching out and grabbing the music off the network drive and Volumio being fed the music via minimserver and Kazoo:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vnwlnvnqqi8qn ... 0.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jhzc6ozkz0jdy ... 2.MOV?dl=0
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by tokenbrit »

The second clip, ...02.MOV, is the song I know. I don't know the song in the first, ...70.MOV, clip. There difference is unsettling, especially in a song I grew up with. (timing's off? (1st clip, not of me growing up ;))

I think it's worth mentioning that this is MinimServer 2 on SnakeOil...
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by markiteight »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-03-28 02:49 I think it's worth mentioning that this is MinimServer 2 on SnakeOil...
And CIFS. I still have to figure out how to implement NFS in Snakeoil.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by beck »

Agree with tokenbrit (did I just write that?....). :-)
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Discodave »

Clip 2 for sure. Clip one, how shall i say, a little smudged.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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tokenbrit wrote: 2021-03-28 02:49 The second clip, ...02.MOV, is the song I know. I don't know the song in the first, ...70.MOV, clip. There difference is unsettling, especially in a song I grew up with. (timing's off? (1st clip, not of me growing up ;))

I think it's worth mentioning that this is MinimServer 2 on SnakeOil...
Not quite following, I thought SnakeOil was something akin to Volumino? How is it being used here? Im not very up on the technical side of these streaming builds.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by springwood64 »

Discodave wrote: 2021-03-28 08:30

Not quite following, I thought SnakeOil was something akin to Volumino? How is it being used here? Im not very up on the technical side of these streaming builds.
SnakeOil is flexible and can be used both as renderer and as NAS. It's a simplified audio operating system and you can enable different music players, servers and clients.

I really like the approach of SnakeOil, so I'm disappointed that in my set up it is so roundly beaten by Volumio.

I also use the Volumio web interface and I've turned off UPNP and DNLA.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Discodave »

Cheers, very helpful.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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tokenbrit wrote: 2021-03-28 02:49 The second clip, ...02.MOV, is the song I know. I don't know the song in the first, ...70.MOV, clip. There difference is unsettling, especially in a song I grew up with. (timing's off? (1st clip, not of me growing up ;))

I think it's worth mentioning that this is MinimServer 2 on SnakeOil...
Clip 2 for me. In my set up the difference between FileShare and UPNP renderer is not so noticeable, though I have stopped using a control point app.

In fact, I find the variation in quality of digital file more significant. Last night I listened to albums both on my NAS and on Qobuz. Sometimes the Qobuz version was better, sometimes my ripped version. The worst was the Qobuz copy of Dire Straits Love over Gold. However the Qobuz version of Communique was better than my ripped version.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by markiteight »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-03-28 02:49 The second clip, ...02.MOV, is the song I know. I don't know the song in the first, ...70.MOV, clip. There difference is unsettling, especially in a song I grew up with. (timing's off? (1st clip, not of me growing up ;))
I agree that the second clip is definitely better and the first is almost unrecognizable but neither of them sound very good, do they? To be honest it didn't sound too fabulous in the room either, and I think I found out why. I thought I had ripped this album from my CD collection, in which case it would be in lossless format, but it's actually an mp3. That explains the general crappiness. Sorry for the goof-up. In case anyone cares the first clip was Volumio on its own, second was minimserver/Kazoo.

I do have Exciter ripped lossless, so let's try this again:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cchouv3omel5c ... 1.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q90pt7ymswoow ... 9.MOV?dl=0
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by lejonklou »

markiteight wrote: 2021-03-29 01:10 I do have Exciter ripped lossless, so let's try this again:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cchouv3omel5c ... 1.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q90pt7ymswoow ... 9.MOV?dl=0
First clip for me.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by beck »

I find it difficult to choose.....

One thing I can say about these digital files is that after the first “this sounds great” I end up being frustrated by the way the music is delivered. On the surface not much is wrong but........

.... I cannot relax into the music making me more stressed...........and going on long enough I would turn it off.

Maybe it is just me.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by lejonklou »

beck wrote: 2021-03-29 11:12 I find it difficult to choose.....

One thing I can say about these digital files is that after the first “this sounds great” I end up being frustrated by the way the music is delivered. On the surface not much is wrong but........

.... I cannot relax into the music making me more stressed...........and going on long enough I would turn it off.

Maybe it is just me.
No it's not just you. I feel the same with most digital sources.

But when choosing between clips I don't listen long enough to enter that frustrated state. I pick the one that makes most sense to me and then I'm done.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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beck wrote: 2021-03-29 11:12
.... I cannot relax into the music making me more stressed...........and going on long enough I would turn it off.
For me this is the most fundamental test of music replay. If I want to keep listening, then everything else is secondary. Otherwise, it can't be my primary source.

I now find both my turntable and my streamer pass this test, with the caveat that sometimes the source file or disc fails the test. On digital that happens more often than on vinyl.

And "stress" is what it feels like if an expectation isn't met, or boredom, loss of interest if I had no prior expectation.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by springwood64 »

Played on my phone speakers.

I have not heard such a noticeable difference in my system between file share and UPNP.

Clip 1 sounds less harsh, tonally richer. I want to keep listening.

Clip 2 sounds flatter and a little painful.

I've replayed them a few times because I can't really believe how harsh the second clip sounds. Does it match the difference in the room?

Clip 1 sounds great
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-29 11:52
beck wrote: 2021-03-29 11:12 I find it difficult to choose.....

One thing I can say about these digital files is that after the first “this sounds great” I end up being frustrated by the way the music is delivered. On the surface not much is wrong but........

.... I cannot relax into the music making me more stressed...........and going on long enough I would turn it off.

Maybe it is just me.
No it's not just you. I feel the same with most digital sources.

But when choosing between clips I don't listen long enough to enter that frustrated state. I pick the one that makes most sense to me and then I'm done.
This highlights a problem I have with short A Vs B comparisons. A may sound better than B, but only an extended listening will reveal whether A is “good enough”. I’m beginning to wonder if a short comparison “tune dem” is more useful for selling HiFi (“buy the one which sounds best to you on a 30 second sound clip”), than determining whether something is “good enough”. In all A/B comparisons, one will be “better” than the other. But, as beck suggests, there’s a possibility that neither is “good enough”.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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Spannko wrote: 2021-03-29 21:34 This highlights a problem I have with short A Vs B comparisons. A may sound better than B, but only an extended listening will reveal whether A is “good enough”. I’m beginning to wonder if a short comparison “tune dem” is more useful for selling HiFi (“buy the one which sounds best to you on a 30 second sound clip”), than determining whether something is “good enough”. In all A/B comparisons, one will be “better” than the other. But, as beck suggests, there’s a possibility that neither is “good enough”.
A key aspect of these clip comparisons is that we are comparing relative differences and merely choosing which one is better. The tune method is never used to find "good enough", only which one is better. Trying to find "good enough" in, or evaluate the absolute musical performance from, recorded clips is fraught with perils and will undoubtedly lead you down the wrong path.
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