HAKAI playground

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

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Spannko
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Spannko »

markiteight wrote: 2021-03-29 23:36
Spannko wrote: 2021-03-29 21:34 This highlights a problem I have with short A Vs B comparisons. A may sound better than B, but only an extended listening will reveal whether A is “good enough”. I’m beginning to wonder if a short comparison “tune dem” is more useful for selling HiFi (“buy the one which sounds best to you on a 30 second sound clip”), than determining whether something is “good enough”. In all A/B comparisons, one will be “better” than the other. But, as beck suggests, there’s a possibility that neither is “good enough”.
A key aspect of these clip comparisons is that we are comparing relative differences and merely choosing which one is better. The tune method is never used to find "good enough", only which one is better. Trying to find "good enough" in, or evaluate the absolute musical performance from, recorded clips is fraught with perils and will undoubtedly lead you down the wrong path.
I should have made it clear that I was referring to quick A/B dems at a shop or at home, and certainly not phone recordings. IMHO, and IME, a short listen is fraught with perils, and has definitely lead me down the wrong path in the past. Personally, I feel I need to use the tune method on a wide variety of recordings, and over an extended period of time, before I can trust my own judgment.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Lego »

David Neel wrote: 2021-02-07 15:49 Punch: https://www.dropbox.com/s/m15qdmc3n9qjt ... 9.mp4?dl=0
Judy: https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4yv2jdzmgljn ... 9.mp4?dl=0

Don't be distracted by the turntable! This is a purely digital comparison.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Lego »

markiteight wrote: 2021-03-25 04:56 Here are a couple clips comparing HAKAI in "normal" configuration (HAKAI based NAS, Netgear GS108t, BJC cables) vs. the same file played directly into HAKAI via a USB thumb drive. Which do you prefer?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yai65spsctmem ... 3.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e237ukf5z6x13 ... F.MOV?dl=0
The second one is miles better ,not even close . First one to me sounds more mechanical especially when guitar comes in.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Lego »

I know that tune
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Lego »

markiteight wrote: 2021-03-29 23:36
Spannko wrote: 2021-03-29 21:34 This highlights a problem I have with short A Vs B comparisons. A may sound better than B, but only an extended listening will reveal whether A is “good enough”. I’m beginning to wonder if a short comparison “tune dem” is more useful for selling HiFi (“buy the one which sounds best to you on a 30 second sound clip”), than determining whether something is “good enough”. In all A/B comparisons, one will be “better” than the other. But, as beck suggests, there’s a possibility that neither is “good enough”.
A key aspect of these clip comparisons is that we are comparing relative differences and merely choosing which one is better. The tune method is never used to find "good enough", only which one is better. Trying to find "good enough" in, or evaluate the absolute musical performance from, recorded clips is fraught with perils and will undoubtedly lead you down the wrong path.
Never has a truer word been spoken.
I personally feel the shorter the tune dem the more accurate it is, on the appropriate track...and it should be extremely easy to hear a difference and if it's difficult.... well put your cheque book away or get back to listening to more tunes
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Spannko »

Every change makes a difference, and a tune based method will reveal the differences in the systems ability to play tunes. I don’t dispute that. I just feel that determining whether I’d want to live with the change takes longer. It may be more tuneful, but it still may not be good enough. Or, as Linn used to say, it might not reach my personal level of musical expectation.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by ThomasOK »

markiteight wrote: 2021-03-29 01:10 I do have Exciter ripped lossless, so let's try this again:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cchouv3omel5c ... 1.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q90pt7ymswoow ... 9.MOV?dl=0
Clip 1 for me as well. To me Clip 2 sounds a bit more Hi-Fi with the initial voice sounding somewhat "cleaner" but it just doesn't seem to move as well at all. It just leaves me flat whereas Clip 1 does seem to have some groove to it.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by markiteight »

Spannko wrote: 2021-03-30 12:06 Every change makes a difference, and a tune based method will reveal the differences in the systems ability to play tunes. I don’t dispute that. I just feel that determining whether I’d want to live with the change takes longer. It may be more tuneful, but it still may not be good enough. Or, as Linn used to say, it might not reach my personal level of musical expectation.
I think I understand what you're saying, Spannko. I have encountered numerous situations that are similar to what you describe. The most notable one for me was when I had the opportunity to compare the stock wideband drivers in my speakers to the version they use in some of their more expensive models. The "upgrade" drivers did a lot of things I liked and I really wanted to keep them, but when I posted clips in the Playground thread everybody chose the original version. I reluctantly re-installed the original drivers and it didn't take even 30 seconds to realize y'all were right. The replacement drivers were boxed up and sent back to Zu and I've never looked back.

There have been several other occasions where the option I expected to be more musical, or wanted to be more musical, wasn't. But ignoring my biases and desires and going with the more musical option was always the right choice. Despite the change sometimes sounding worse the cumulative result of all these changes has been a massive transformation in the musical performance of my system. Is it good enough? Nope! There's always more to be had. The musically superior choice is never good enough, but it is always better.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by markiteight »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-03-30 22:55
markiteight wrote: 2021-03-29 01:10 I do have Exciter ripped lossless, so let's try this again:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cchouv3omel5c ... 1.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q90pt7ymswoow ... 9.MOV?dl=0
Clip 1 for me as well. To me Clip 2 sounds a bit more Hi-Fi with the initial voice sounding somewhat "cleaner" but it just doesn't seem to move as well at all. It just leaves me flat whereas Clip 1 does seem to have some groove to it.
Thanks to everyone who chimed in. These are some interesting results. In both sets of clips the first was Volumio and its web interface, second was minimserver/Kazoo. Two things strike me as eyebrow raising: 1) In both sets of clips the differences between the two are much more apparent in the clips than they are in the room, and 2) The results are different for .mp3 and lossless (ALAC in this case), with .mp3 universally in favor of minimserver and unanimous votes for Volumio on lossless. My ears are in agreement with yours, but when I have some more time (and the pesky music isn't distracting me) I'm going to investigate this a bit more to see if this is a consistent result or a fluke of the particular songs I chose. The quality of .mp3 rips seems to vary a lot, from barely tolerable to downright unlistenable.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Discodave »

Spannko wrote: 2021-03-30 01:42
markiteight wrote: 2021-03-29 23:36
Spannko wrote: 2021-03-29 21:34 This highlights a problem I have with short A Vs B comparisons. A may sound better than B, but only an extended listening will reveal whether A is “good enough”. I’m beginning to wonder if a short comparison “tune dem” is more useful for selling HiFi (“buy the one which sounds best to you on a 30 second sound clip”), than determining whether something is “good enough”. In all A/B comparisons, one will be “better” than the other. But, as beck suggests, there’s a possibility that neither is “good enough”.
A key aspect of these clip comparisons is that we are comparing relative differences and merely choosing which one is better. The tune method is never used to find "good enough", only which one is better. Trying to find "good enough" in, or evaluate the absolute musical performance from, recorded clips is fraught with perils and will undoubtedly lead you down the wrong path.
I should have made it clear that I was referring to quick A/B dems at a shop or at home, and certainly not phone recordings. IMHO, and IME, a short listen is fraught with perils, and has definitely lead me down the wrong path in the past. Personally, I feel I need to use the tune method on a wide variety of recordings, and over an extended period of time, before I can trust my own judgment.
Agreed. I spend a lot of time in comparison with new kit. My dealer is a gent and allows home demos. I have bought stuff 2nd hand hoping it would be better. It wasn't and I have sold it on at minimal loss. How it sounds in YOUR room is everything to me. And I spend days demoing - back and forth. If it's right, it's right!
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by springwood64 »

Comparing with and without lump of Serpentine on top of the DAC (https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... 792#p55792):

Green : https://www.dropbox.com/s/nxcwzhid7ywbn ... n.mp4?dl=0

Red: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7hezofceg9s1yml/red.mp4?dl=0

Let me know what you think
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by beck »

Green is nearest to what I like, so that is what I prefer.....

Red is lovely seperated but too much so with less emotion IMO.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by tokenbrit »

beck wrote: 2021-04-13 15:15 Green is nearest to what I like, so that is what I prefer.....

Red is lovely seperated but too much so with less emotion IMO.
I listened yesterday, but didn't post. This was partly because I was surprised at the difference in presentation of the same piece, and second guessed myself from there... Agree with beck; Green for me too. Red sounds thin in comparison, and has lost me by the time she sings the word 'emotion', without any...
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by ThomasOK »

Yep, I'm with the group here. Red has some interesting aspects but Joan definitely Shows Some Emotion in the Green clip that is lacking in the Red one.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by springwood64 »

Are her emotions suppressed in red? Weighed down? Perhaps she's feeling flat.

I should have recorded pigs on the wing.
You know that I care what happens to you,
And I know that you care for me.
So I don't feel alone,
Or the weight of the stone
Red is under the rock.

I was surprised by the difference too.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Whatsmynaim »

Yes. Green is better and I've never heard any improvements when putting something on my own hifi-gear or speakers.
It's free though so worth trying.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by V.A.MKD »

+1 for Green group ...
Music First ...
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