HAKAI playground

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by springwood64 »

Interesting beck, thanks. I'm going to listen again to Daddy Lessons on vinyl and digital to check if I hear the same.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-13 20:57 Interesting beck, thanks. I'm going to listen again to Daddy Lessons on vinyl and digital to check if I hear the same.
The most important lesson to learn is to trust ourselves and at the same time be willing to admit that we all can make mistakes........

I also prefer your “run” clip to your “time” clip.


One more thing: listening to vinyl will never be the same as listening to digital though I find that trying to close the gab between the two formats can be useful........

Remember this guy:

https://youtu.be/zaeugL-1QJo

Listen from 15.30 and learn why vinyl sounds different.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by springwood64 »

beck wrote: 2021-03-14 08:19 The most important lesson to learn is to trust ourselves and at the same time be willing to admit that we all can make mistakes........

I also prefer your “run” clip to your “time” clip.


One more thing: listening to vinyl will never be the same as listening to digital though I find that trying to close the gab between the two formats can be useful........

Remember this guy:

https://youtu.be/zaeugL-1QJo

Listen from 15.30 and learn why vinyl sounds different!
I've never heard that explanation before: very interesting. Early in my career I developed mathematical filters for vehicle navigation systems (using the American Omega submarine navigation system), so overshoot and undershoot are familiar to me from long ago. I initially tried smoothing filters (alpha-beta) to reduce the distortions created by noise. However if I wanted the cars to stay near the roads, the overshoot and undershoot was far too great. The vehicle plots looked as though they were driven though treacle, desperately trying to get back on the road after every change in direction. Ease off the filtering and the cars leapt sporadically into nearby rivers or randomly reversed before shooting forward again.

So I turned to filters that used fast Fourier transforms to separate contributory frequencies and apply different filters to the them, smoothing the noise more aggressively than (I hoped) the signal. I was amazed at the effectiveness of this approach. The cars tracked obediently on the roads, mostly resisting all nearby rivers. Well, as closely as the maximum resolution of 250m allowed.

It is fun to try and close the gap between the two. I've found it useful to use my vinyl to guide my tuning of the digital, and the insight this forum provides via feedback is also a spur for me to listen again.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by beck »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-14 09:04
It is fun to try and close the gap between the two. I've found it useful to use my vinyl to guide my tuning of the digital, and the insight this forum provides via feedback is also a spur for me to listen again.
Same here. :-)
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Re: HAKAI playground

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beck wrote: 2021-03-14 08:19 Remember this guy:

https://youtu.be/zaeugL-1QJo

Listen from 15.30 and learn why vinyl sounds different.
I don't know who this guy is, but he's wrong. A digital reproduction doesn't go "from zero to one" without overshoot or ringing unless the frequency range is infinite. And it's never infinite.

The analogue reproduction of a waveform can be distorted in many ways, but it doesn't necessarily overshoot.

What he's saying is that the analogue reproduction adds harmonics. That's correct. But then he says that makes it sound better. That may be true for a subjective evaluation of how you like the sound, but if you judge with the Tune Method, added harmonics only makes the reproduction worse. I have not found any way to add any kind of distortion (harmonics) to a system that didn't make it perform musically worse.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by springwood64 »

That's a pity, I liked the story.

Has anyone encountered a robust explanation of why vinyl replay of digital recordings is so often more enjoyable? Why does my 40 year old entry level turntable still sound more enjoyable than any digital replay I have tried?
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Re: HAKAI playground

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springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-15 08:49 That's a pity, I liked the story.
Me too. He seems like the funny uncle in the family that always has a good story to tell! :-)
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by lejonklou »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-15 08:49 Has anyone encountered a robust explanation of why vinyl replay of digital recordings is so often more enjoyable? Why does my 40 year old entry level turntable still sound more enjoyable than any digital replay I have tried?
To my knowledge there isn't any "simple and catchy" one that explains it all.

One key difference between analogue and digital is that analogue is good at faint signals. They are quite faithfully reproduced until they fade out into the background noise. Strong signals are distorted. Our hearing has the same characteristics.

Digital is really good at strong signals and progressively worse the fainter the signal becomes. While one might object that it's still very good at faint signals, perhaps the relationship between how faint and strong signals are reproduced is more important than the magnitude of the distortion. Our hearing is funny in that we seem super tolerant of some types of distortion and really annoyed by others. That's one reason I don't care about measurements like Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) - they are heavily weighted towards quantity (a nasty and annoying character can yield a small number, while a nice and cosy sound can yield a big number).
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Re: HAKAI playground

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springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-15 08:49 That's a pity, I liked the story.

Has anyone encountered a robust explanation of why vinyl replay of digital recordings is so often more enjoyable? Why does my 40 year old entry level turntable still sound more enjoyable than any digital replay I have tried?
The more I find out about digital the more it appears that it's supposed robustness is a lie - at least in relation to musical reproduction. The more research is done by people really listening the more it is found that all kinds of things that aren't supposed to make any difference make quite notable changes in the music. This has been shown here by numerous clips of things like the network switch, the power supply to that switch, different ethernet cables and their directions and all the different components that have been tried to come up with the LS-NAS and HAKAI.

I don't consider this any more than an off the top of the head hypothesis (or maybe even just a WAG). But once the signal is pressed on the record, as long as played through an analog system it is no longer subject to the types of distortions that can inflict digital transmission of the music. Certainly there are also analog distortions but they are just that, analog, and generally in sympathy with the ear. They are also usually at fairly low levels audibly with good modern equipment (and even good classic equipment). Whereas digital can cause distortions like pre-ringing that never occur in nature and catch the attention of the ear/brain. This becomes more important when you realize that a good LP is often made from the digital master tape. Compared to that how many transmissions and retransmissions are involved when you listen to a tune streamed from Qobuz?
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Re: HAKAI playground

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Here are a couple clips comparing HAKAI in "normal" configuration (HAKAI based NAS, Netgear GS108t, BJC cables) vs. the same file played directly into HAKAI via a USB thumb drive. Which do you prefer?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yai65spsctmem ... 3.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e237ukf5z6x13 ... F.MOV?dl=0
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by beck »

They are different from each other. :-)

I cannot pick a favorite at the moment..........
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel »

Interesting! I'd quite like to hear the voice from the first one with the guitar of the second...
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Spannko »

I prefer the first one.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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Comparison of Volumio (MPD 0.21.16, Intel 320 160GB SSD) and SnakeOil (MPD 0.21.22, Intel 320 120GB SSD)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kmzqafgr6zeilig/3B.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xflwrt20eo8014b/3C.mp4?dl=0
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Re: HAKAI playground

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markiteight wrote: 2021-03-25 04:56 Here are a couple clips comparing HAKAI in "normal" configuration (HAKAI based NAS, Netgear GS108t, BJC cables) vs. the same file played directly into HAKAI via a USB thumb drive. Which do you prefer?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yai65spsctmem ... 3.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e237ukf5z6x13 ... F.MOV?dl=0
Prefer the first one,
btw nice system, what do you have?
Thanks

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Spannko »

2nd one for me 🙂
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by lejonklou »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-25 14:20 Comparison of Volumio (MPD 0.21.16, Intel 320 160GB SSD) and SnakeOil (MPD 0.21.22, Intel 320 120GB SSD)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kmzqafgr6zeilig/3B.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xflwrt20eo8014b/3C.mp4?dl=0
Second clip!
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Re: HAKAI playground

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springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-25 14:20 Comparison of Volumio (MPD 0.21.16, Intel 320 160GB SSD) and SnakeOil (MPD 0.21.22, Intel 320 120GB SSD)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kmzqafgr6zeilig/3B.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xflwrt20eo8014b/3C.mp4?dl=0
I prefer the first (top) clip.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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markiteight wrote: 2021-03-25 04:56 Here are a couple clips comparing HAKAI in "normal" configuration (HAKAI based NAS, Netgear GS108t, BJC cables) vs. the same file played directly into HAKAI via a USB thumb drive. Which do you prefer?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yai65spsctmem ... 3.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e237ukf5z6x13 ... F.MOV?dl=0
More funk & hit from 2; softer but a bit more expressive from 1 - I'm with 'DN'
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Re: HAKAI playground

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markiteight wrote: 2021-03-25 04:56 Here are a couple clips comparing HAKAI in "normal" configuration (HAKAI based NAS, Netgear GS108t, BJC cables) vs. the same file played directly into HAKAI via a USB thumb drive. Which do you prefer?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yai65spsctmem ... 3.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e237ukf5z6x13 ... F.MOV?dl=0
The difference here is much smaller than I would expect it to be. I wonder why? Leaning towards the second clip.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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Spannko wrote: 2021-03-25 17:31 2nd one for me 🙂
To which comparison are you referring, mine or Pete's?
matthias wrote: 2021-03-25 15:23 Prefer the first one,
btw nice system, what do you have?
Thanks, Matt. I appreciate your feedback. System deets here: https://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtop ... 223#p40223
Noting earth shattering but it gives me a tremendous amount of enjoyment.
springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-25 14:20 Comparison of Volumio (MPD 0.21.16, Intel 320 160GB SSD) and SnakeOil (MPD 0.21.22, Intel 320 120GB SSD)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kmzqafgr6zeilig/3B.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xflwrt20eo8014b/3C.mp4?dl=0
I'll take door number 2.
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Re: HAKAI playground

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lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-26 00:33 The difference here is much smaller than I would expect it to be. I wonder why? Leaning towards the second clip.
I've been wondering the same thing. I'm laboring under the impression that storing music files on a NAS and feeding them to the streamer via a switch has the potential to be the most musical solution. Is that a safe assumption? If that's true then it's apparent from the closeness of these clips that the NAS, in its current state, is playing down to the USB stick's level. I hope that's the case because that means there's even more music to be had!

First clip is the USB stick, 2nd is the NAS.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel »

springwood64 wrote: 2021-03-25 14:20 Comparison of Volumio (MPD 0.21.16, Intel 320 160GB SSD) and SnakeOil (MPD 0.21.22, Intel 320 120GB SSD)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kmzqafgr6zeilig/3B.mp4?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xflwrt20eo8014b/3C.mp4?dl=0
second clip...
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Re: HAKAI playground

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markiteight wrote: 2021-03-25 04:56 Here are a couple clips comparing HAKAI in "normal" configuration (HAKAI based NAS, Netgear GS108t, BJC cables) vs. the same file played directly into HAKAI via a USB thumb drive. Which do you prefer?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yai65spsctmem ... 3.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e237ukf5z6x13 ... F.MOV?dl=0
Originally I thought Clip 1 by a small margin. More back and forth leads me to go with clip 2 by a small margin. Close enough for me.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Discodave »

tokenbrit wrote: 2021-03-25 20:52
markiteight wrote: 2021-03-25 04:56 Here are a couple clips comparing HAKAI in "normal" configuration (HAKAI based NAS, Netgear GS108t, BJC cables) vs. the same file played directly into HAKAI via a USB thumb drive. Which do you prefer?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yai65spsctmem ... 3.MOV?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e237ukf5z6x13 ... F.MOV?dl=0
More funk & hit from 2; softer but a bit more expressive from 1 - I'm with 'DN'
I actuay thought there was more funk and drive with 1, which is why I initially instinctively thought it was more musical. However, on repeated listens the more laid back nature of 2 revealed itself to be more musical imo. Just.
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