HAKAI playground

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

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FairPlayMotty
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-05 16:03

David Neel wrote:
2020-01-05 15:44
lejonklou wrote:
2020-01-05 13:27

Sorry, FairPlayMotty, but you have lost me.

It's very easy to get lost in these comparisons and therefore it's important that we simplify and keep an extreme attention to detail. Both when rigging the alternatives, recording them and accounting for the actual differences after the voting on the clips.
You lost me too! And I have history in disappearing down evaluation rabbit-holes :)

But in the spirit of enquiry, I've bought one...
I wrote a detailed reply, pressed submit and it's not appeared. If it doesn't appear in the next twenty minutes I'll re-write it. The bottom line is I should re-record the three clips.

The first was of the Intel DN2800MT using the isolation card.

The second was of the Hakai using a Gigabyte N3160N-D3V.

The third was of the Asus Tinker Board S using the latest version of Volumio (Dec 2019) flashed to the onboard memory.

All three played music sourced from my Hakai Server (Gigabyte N3160N-D3V).

It was the comment by ThomasOK that led me to re-listen to clip one then the music again and I realised there was something wrong with the recording. The other two are a fair representation of the music played.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by lejonklou » 2020-01-05 16:25

Thanks!

The power supplies have a big impact as well and should be listed.

It seems to me that the Gigabyte board remains on top then and that first clip should be removed as it's invalid.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by matthias » 2020-01-05 16:30

FairPlayMotty wrote:
2020-01-05 09:34
The overall results of the clips indicate that the Intel DN2800MT sounds best, the Gigabyte Hakai boards still sound good.
Brian,
sorry, but the Intel is the first one and most voted for the second one which is Hakai or do I miss something?
Thanks

Matt
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-05 16:33

matthias wrote:
2020-01-05 16:30
FairPlayMotty wrote:
2020-01-05 09:34
The overall results of the clips indicate that the Intel DN2800MT sounds best, the Gigabyte Hakai boards still sound good.
Brian,
sorry, but the Intel is the first one and most voted for the second one which is Hakai or do I miss something?
Thanks

Matt
Matt,

The Intel has been the most voted for aside from the last set of clips.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-05 16:39

lejonklou wrote:
2020-01-05 16:25
Thanks!

The power supplies have a big impact as well and should be listed.

It seems to me that the Gigabyte board remains on top then and that first clip should be removed as it's invalid.
It's a good point Fredrik. The Streacom power supply seems to be a bigger part of the overall package than with the Intel DN2800MT which only has a small adapter going to a power input socket on the back of the motherboard. It maybe part of the perceived differences between the two motherboards.

For both the Gigabyte and Intel motherboards I'm using the SnakeOil OS from an Intel 320 SSD playing the latest version of MPD.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by matthias » 2020-01-05 16:42

LP12 / Exposure / JBL3677

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-05 16:47

Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-05 16:59

rps20200105_155558.jpg
rps20200105_155558.jpg (25.62 KiB) Viewed 1552 times
By default SnakeOil OS uses the latest version of MPD when Minimserver and upmpdcli are selected.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-05 21:34

These are the amended files for opinions please:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GLDXV ... UZE9tNgiy2
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GPWV6 ... 82985v03yJ
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GiY8G ... oY9YF6vzfj

Hopefully these are a better representation of the motherboards. Apologies.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Lego » 2020-01-05 21:51

Easily clip 1 for me
I know that tune

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel » 2020-01-05 23:33

And me.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by lejonklou » 2020-01-06 01:33

And me.
FairPlayMotty wrote:
2020-01-05 16:39
It's a good point Fredrik. The Streacom power supply seems to be a bigger part of the overall package than with the Intel DN2800MT which only has a small adapter going to a power input socket on the back of the motherboard. It maybe part of the perceived differences between the two motherboards.
To make a motherboard powered by a single voltage perform as well as an ATX powered motherboard requires a lot of work in my experience. The power adapter usually needs to be tuned for the specific motherboard and often the on-board DC-DC regulators need tuning as well. So far this has been the case with all single-supply motherboards that I've tested.

Therefore ATX powered motherboards are an easier route to musical performance. One just needs to pick an ATX power supply that sounds good.

Apologies for being negative. There's always a chance that some board out there proves me wrong, so I'm not ruling out the single voltage powered ones entirely. But the adapter will always play an important role for how they perform and every change made to it can be easily heard.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-06 01:49

lejonklou wrote:
2020-01-06 01:33
And me.
FairPlayMotty wrote:
2020-01-05 16:39
It's a good point Fredrik. The Streacom power supply seems to be a bigger part of the overall package than with the Intel DN2800MT which only has a small adapter going to a power input socket on the back of the motherboard. It maybe part of the perceived differences between the two motherboards.
To make a motherboard powered by a single voltage perform as well as an ATX powered motherboard requires a lot of work in my experience. The power adapter usually needs to be tuned for the specific motherboard and often the on-board DC-DC regulators need tuning as well. So far this has been the case with all single-supply motherboards that I've tested.

Therefore ATX powered motherboards are an easier route to musical performance. One just needs to pick an ATX power supply that sounds good.

Apologies for being negative. There's always a chance that some board out there proves me wrong, so I'm not ruling out the single voltage powered ones entirely. But the adapter will always play an important role for how they perform and every change made to it can be easily heard.
Thanks for the insight Fredrik. I guess it explains why lots of the Australians have a linear power supply. I tried to post a pic of the power adapter for this board earlier. It is smaller than the ESI DAC and I have no idea about the quality of it.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel » 2020-01-06 11:43

lejonklou wrote:
2020-01-06 01:33
One just needs to pick an ATX power supply that sounds good.
Are there any current recommendations, and is SFX any good? I tried powering a Hakai with the old Seasonic ATX from my LSNAS, and it sounded good. EDIT: but not as musical as the Nano PSU.
Last edited by David Neel on 2020-01-07 21:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by lejonklou » 2020-01-06 21:01

FairPlayMotty wrote:
2020-01-06 01:49
I guess it explains why lots of the Australians have a linear power supply.
They probably use a linear power supply because someone on the internet wrote that they sound better. As soon as they connect the linear supply, they notice a big difference in the sound. Unable to critically evaluate the musical difference and elated about the miracle that a change of supposedly unimportant gear could actually be heard, they decide that it sounds much better than before.

Switch mode power supplies have much greater potential than linear.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-06 21:55

lejonklou wrote:
2020-01-06 21:01


Switch mode power supplies have much greater potential than linear.
As a power supply novice I guess it depends completely on the expertise of the engineer. There are hundreds of linear power supplies and others that get roasted in reviews.

The Intel DN2800MT may be PSU compromised to some extent. But it's keeping me up late listening to it. The Hakai sounds great too. It's a musical bonanza for me.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-07 19:09

Clip one was the Asus Tinker Board S. More clips will follow shortly.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by lejonklou » 2020-01-07 19:41

FairPlayMotty wrote:
2020-01-07 19:09
Clip one was the Asus Tinker Board S. More clips will follow shortly.
Wow!

And the other two were Intel and Gigabyte? Which one was 2 and which was 3?

Any changes that you know of that gave this radically different result?

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-07 19:56

lejonklou wrote:
2020-01-07 19:41
FairPlayMotty wrote:
2020-01-07 19:09
Clip one was the Asus Tinker Board S. More clips will follow shortly.
Wow!

And the other two were Intel and Gigabyte? Which one was 2 and which was 3?

Any changes that you know of that gave this radically different result?
Clip two was the Intel and three was the Hakai. I've no idea why the result changed dramatically. More clips may help to illuminate the differences.

In the room before and after the results I went Intel, Hakai then Asus. Every time I use the Tinker Board I think it's no right to sound that good from a SBC the size of a credit card.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by beck » 2020-01-07 21:43

A second opinion on the three clips above:

I hear the Hakai as more able to present a 3d like version of the starting voice. To me the first clip is flat (up against a window).
When the band starts playing in the first clip it is with a “flaked” timing. Nothing is happening at the same time (but almost!) leaving everything clear to hear.
Even if the Hakai seems clumsy with the band playing I hear it as nearer live timing (though not fully there).

Just a second opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by ThomasOK » 2020-01-07 22:54

I liked clip 1 the best as well, closely followed by clip 3. I did read the comments first so my listening wasn't blind.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-19 20:38

Last edited by FairPlayMotty on 2020-01-20 01:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-01-19 20:54

All clips used the same Linn preamp input and Supra cable.

The preamp has to be factory reset between sources or the input volume changes - I have no idea why that is but at least I found a workaround.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by V.A.MKD » 2020-01-19 21:12

Music First ...
Vlado

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by beck » 2020-01-19 22:23

Source B clip A is missing in the upper set of clips (where source B clip B has been put in).

I had an early vote out but think I have to listen more to decide.

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