HAKAI playground

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

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David Neel
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel » 2018-11-19 19:52

Charlie1 wrote:
2018-11-19 10:28
I like your system through the clips David - seems nicely balanced with a sense of calm too.
sunbeamgls called it "careful" and opined that "you wouldn't want to play Yello through that...."

Thank you, sense of calm seems a much better description :)
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by beck » 2018-11-19 20:14

David Neel wrote:
2018-11-19 19:52
[quote=Charlie1 post_id=38410 time=<a href="tel:1542619712">1542619712</a> user_id=203]
I like your system through the clips David - seems nicely balanced with a sense of calm too.
sunbeamgls called it "careful" and opined that "you wouldn't want to play Yello through that...."

Thank you, sense of calm seems a much better description :)
[/quote]

Question: I hear it as if the ADS3 produce a more physical sound listening to the clips. Do you hear it like that in the room?

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel » 2018-11-19 20:27

beck wrote:
2018-11-19 20:14
Question: I hear it as if the ADS3 produce a more physical sound listening to the clips. Do you hear it like that in the room?
The ADS/3 certainly has its merits. I'm not sure what you mean by "physical", but the sound is perhaps more "natural" than Hakai, and it would win in "hifi" terms. In the room, it was closer than the clips, hence why I resorted to clips.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by matthias » 2018-11-19 21:14

Thanks Sopper and David for these great comparisons.
The results seem to be, starting from page 9:

ADSM + RME is superior to HAKAI + RME
HAKAI + ESI is superior to ADSM + RME
HAKAI + ESI is superior to ADS/3

So HAKAI + ESI is much superior to HAKAI + RME or maybe HAKAI dislikes so much to be with RME that ADSM can outperform HAKAI as streamer when not matched with ESI.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Spannko » 2018-11-19 21:25

David Neel wrote:
2018-11-19 19:26
The streamers were:

1. ADS/3
2. Hakai N3160N-D3V
3. Hakai N3050N-D2P
The Hakai N3050N-D2P wins for me. Thanks for the clips David.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Lego » 2018-11-19 21:49

Marcus Miller!... I'm sure..Track 1 good second set maybe track 2 best
I know that tune

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Sopper » 2018-11-19 22:26

matthias wrote:
2018-11-19 21:14
Thanks Sopper and David for these great comparisons.
The results seem to be, starting from page 9:

ADSM + RME is superior to HAKAI + RME
HAKAI + ESI is superior to ADSM + RME
HAKAI + ESI is superior to ADS/3

So HAKAI + ESI is much superior to HAKAI + RME or maybe HAKAI dislikes so much to be with RME that ADSM can outperform HAKAI as streamer when not matched with ESI.

Matt
Matt, i disagree with your statements; it’s not that simple

I believe that the difference between RME and ESI is not that obvious.
The performance of both dacs are related to the music played with them.

ESI wins hands down when music with emotion, which is not related to perfect transition, is played.
RME excels in getting difficult (fast) and technical layers in music right and how it was recorded.

I’ll record some difficult clips next time
(Steven Wilson - Luminol (as example))
You’ll hear that the ESI makes a mess of the low frequencies and the RME executes it perfectly.
# HAKAI # Sagatun mono + Tundra mono # Harbeth SHL5+ 40th Ann # Mogami Neglex III 2803 + 2804

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by matthias » 2018-11-20 17:50

Sopper wrote:
2018-11-19 22:26
Matt, i disagree with your statements; it’s not that simple
I believe that the difference between RME and ESI is not that obvious.
The performance of both dacs are related to the music played with them.
ESI wins hands down when music with emotion, which is not related to perfect transition, is played.
RME excels in getting difficult (fast) and technical layers in music right and how it was recorded.
I’ll record some difficult clips next time
(Steven Wilson - Luminol (as example))
You’ll hear that the ESI makes a mess of the low frequencies and the RME executes it perfectly.
Sopper,
these are not my statements, particularly logic conclusions from the last comparisons.
Anyway, you know both DACs from daily use and I trust your verdict.

Did you come across a DAC which has the strenghts of both RME and ESI?

Looking forward to your next clips.

Matt
Last edited by matthias on 2018-11-20 19:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Charlie1 » 2018-11-20 18:22

Yeah, it's sounding good this end Sopper. Hope you feel that you're making progress.

David Neel
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel » 2018-11-20 19:12

Sopper wrote:
2018-11-19 22:26
ESI wins hands down when music with emotion, which is not related to perfect transition, is played.
RME excels in getting difficult (fast) and technical layers in music right and how it was recorded.
If I've correctly understood you, this is an important distinction. I'm translating this as the choice between enjoying music viscerally because the emotion dominates (and the music is well understood), and enjoying music both viscerally and cerebrally - because where additional nuance is unpacked we understand the music better.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Sopper » 2018-11-20 19:34

David Neel wrote:
2018-11-20 19:12

If I've correctly understood you, this is an important distinction. I'm translating this as the choice between enjoying music viscerally because the emotion dominates (and the music is well understood), and enjoying music both viscerally and cerebrally - because where additional nuance is unpacked we understand the music better.
That’s exactly what I mean, David
# HAKAI # Sagatun mono + Tundra mono # Harbeth SHL5+ 40th Ann # Mogami Neglex III 2803 + 2804

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel » 2018-11-20 19:52

Sopper wrote:
2018-11-20 19:34
David Neel wrote:
2018-11-20 19:12

If I've correctly understood you, this is an important distinction. I'm translating this as the choice between enjoying music viscerally because the emotion dominates (and the music is well understood), and enjoying music both viscerally and cerebrally - because where additional nuance is unpacked we understand the music better.
That’s exactly what I mean, David
So the logical follow-on is that the musicality of a piece of hifi (if defined as musical enjoyment and engagement - evidenced by a strong desire to carry on listening) can be conditional on the music?
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-11-21 00:48

OK, I just had a chance to listen to these now. I saw that somebody liked 3,2,1 but then I didn't scroll down further as I wanted to listen without seeing what was going on or what people liked.

Although all of them sounded at least good, in comparison I didn't care for the first clip on either one, it was harder to follow and just a little dull or flat sounding. On the first set of clips I found myself getting into 2 more than three. It just seemed to flow and connect a bit better than 3 although 3 was pretty good too. On the second set of clips this was reversed and clip 3 was easier to follow and to get into the music whereas clip 2 just sounded like the notes on the piano and, even a bit more the bass, were a bit slurred.

So first set 2, 3, 1
Second set 3, 2, 1
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-11-21 00:58

lejonklou wrote:
2018-11-19 15:24
I thought we already concluded that ESI Gigaport HD+ is better? *grin*
I asked because I remembered (quite possibly incorrectly) that the earlier comparison was done with a different filter setting than some of the other comparisons. So I wanted to make sure we were comparing with what Sopper considered to be the most tuneful filter setting.

On these clips I preferred clip 2 on both of them. They were more fun and easier to follow all the instruments. However, it said these were instrumental but I swear I hear a voice in the beginning of the first set of clips!
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Sopper » 2018-11-21 12:23

ThomasOK wrote:
2018-11-21 00:58

I asked because I remembered (quite possibly incorrectly) that the earlier comparison was done with a different filter setting than some of the other comparisons. So I wanted to make sure we were comparing with what Sopper considered to be the most tuneful filter setting.
True, sofar i've tested SD Slow and Fast filters, and i like the Slow filter more.
Fast filter is too analytical to my tasting.
Have a bunch to test more, SD Fast, Slow and NOS.
ThomasOK wrote:
2018-11-21 00:58

On these clips I preferred clip 2 on both of them. They were more fun and easier to follow all the instruments. However, it said these were instrumental but I swear I hear a voice in the beginning of the first set of clips!
In first set 1. was ESI and 2. was RME SD Slow filter
In second set 2. was ESI and 1. was RME SD Slow filter
# HAKAI # Sagatun mono + Tundra mono # Harbeth SHL5+ 40th Ann # Mogami Neglex III 2803 + 2804

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-11-21 17:18

Interesting. I listened to them pretty quickly and only once each as it was just before closing at the store. There was also some music playing loud in another room drifting through. I'll have to give them another listen when I have a little tie and see if I still rank them the same, although now I can't do it blind.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Spannko » 2018-11-21 17:51

David & sopper,

Which version of Davaar firmware are you using?

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-11-21 18:03

OK, I went back and listened to both sets of clips several times and ran them longer than I did yesterday evening. I have to say I like all four clips and had to listen a bit to make up my mind. The RME has an appealing clarity making the notes stand out a bit more, but after a lot of back and forth on the second set I still felt I like clip 2 better even though at first I was leaning the other way. I found in the middle of that clip that when there were some fast runs on the vibes that 2 had better timing and it was easier to follow the bass line at the same time. Clip 1 felt a bit stilted in those runs.

On the first set of clips I basically found the same thing, both were good but clip 1 held it together better when things got a bit complex. Although at first listen the Gigaport sounds a little flat and the RME more dynamic. Can I have the best of both please?
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Sopper » 2018-11-21 18:17

Spannko wrote:
2018-11-21 17:51
David & sopper,

Which version of Davaar firmware are you using?
I’m using the latest
ThomasOK wrote:
2018-11-21 18:03
OK, I went back and listened to both sets of clips several times and ran them longer than I did yesterday evening. I have to say I like all four clips and had to listen a bit to make up my mind. The RME has an appealing clarity making the notes stand out a bit more.
Can I have the best of both please?
Good to hear you like all clips.
And yes the good of both worlds would be best.

I’m open for suggestions for next comparisons
Songs, artists, etc, name it and I will make clips.
# HAKAI # Sagatun mono + Tundra mono # Harbeth SHL5+ 40th Ann # Mogami Neglex III 2803 + 2804

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Spannko » 2018-11-21 20:07

Sopper wrote:
2018-11-21 18:17
Spannko wrote:
2018-11-21 17:51
David & sopper,

Which version of Davaar firmware are you using?
I’m using the latest
Ah, that could be really significant. Musically, the difference between the different firmwares can be quite big, and the latest is not that good compared to 53.125, so a more musical firmware could possibly reverse the order of preference.

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel » 2018-11-21 21:35

63.223
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by ThomasOK » 2018-11-21 23:19

Sopper wrote:
2018-11-21 18:17
ThomasOK wrote:
2018-11-21 18:03
OK, I went back and listened to both sets of clips several times and ran them longer than I did yesterday evening. I have to say I like all four clips and had to listen a bit to make up my mind. The RME has an appealing clarity making the notes stand out a bit more.
Can I have the best of both please?
Good to hear you like all clips.
And yes the good of both worlds would be best.

I’m open for suggestions for next comparisons
Songs, artists, etc, name it and I will make clips.
Personally I am way up for the Steven Wilson suggestion, or Porcupine Tree. Any good tracks, and there are many to choose from.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by matthias » 2018-11-21 23:40

Sopper wrote:
2018-11-21 18:17
I’m open for suggestions for next comparisons
Songs, artists, etc, name it and I will make clips.
Art Ensemble of Chicago: Charlie M
Thanks

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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by David Neel » 2018-11-22 19:58

David Neel wrote:
2018-11-21 21:35
63.223
I'm not (now) inclined to obsess over Davaar versions. For a long time I stuck with 22.1006 and loved it. When I wanted to try Space I had to update, and when I stopped using Space I reverted. Now I've upgraded to an ADS/3 I have little choice, old versions no longer work.

For me ADS/3 and Hakai are actually very different, the two motherboards much less so. If I keep the ADS/3, it will be because I can then construct a separate system, digital only, for less critical listening. When vinyl is my main source, it's so far ahead of either that I will keep the Hakai for its musicality and put up with Volumio's issues - I couldn't do that if it was my main source. This will, I hope, explain my different approach to Hakai.
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Re: HAKAI playground

Post by Sopper » 2018-11-23 11:39

Clips on request HAKAI
ESI Gigaport HD+ vs RME ADI-2 dac

Steven Wilson - Luminol
https://www.dropbox.com/s/py1s2hznjjxqp ... 4.MOV?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sgxs1hxjhy43g ... 6.MOV?dl=0

Art Ensemble of Chicago - Charlie M
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gw4bicn8ohk64 ... 5.MOV?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/km1rvmiz6enme ... 7.MOV?dl=0

I expect people to like RME more with Steven Wilson and ESI with Art Ensemble
Last edited by Sopper on 2018-11-23 12:58, edited 1 time in total.
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