GIGAPORT HD/HD+

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

Moderator: Staff

matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: The DAC is like the cartridge of a turntable. What's driving it is far more important.
Fredrik,
I agree completely, but why then does any other DAC besides the ESI ruin the performance?

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote:
lejonklou wrote: The DAC is like the cartridge of a turntable. What's driving it is far more important.
Fredrik,
I agree completely, but why then does any other DAC besides the ESI ruin the performance?

Matt
The isochronous transfer mode. Plus some other things it's doing in simple but goods ways.

It can be done even better, but it requires a lot of work. I think there's some coincidence involved that made ESI hit the sweet spot with Gigaport.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Volumio and ESI gigaport HD+ still refuse to run stable, no matter what I try.
It can play an album, but I have to leave it that way; still troublesome with switching song or adding songs, etc.

It really is the ESI dac causing problems; my RME ADI-2 dac runs flawlessly
Sopper, the Linn app works well as does HiFi Cast.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Sopper
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 430
Joined: 2017-05-16 14:50
Location: The Netherlands

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by Sopper »

FairPlayMotty wrote:
Volumio and ESI gigaport HD+ still refuse to run stable, no matter what I try.
It can play an album, but I have to leave it that way; still troublesome with switching song or adding songs, etc.

It really is the ESI dac causing problems; my RME ADI-2 dac runs flawlessly
Sopper, the Linn app works well as does HiFi Cast.
Yes I know.

Things seems to go wrong when trying to switch or switching from music on NAS to Tidal or Qobuz or combined or use Kazoo + web ui or Volumio app.
Lego wrote:
Sopper wrote:Volumio and ESI gigaport HD+ still refuse to run stable, no matter what I try.
It can play an album, but I have to leave it that way; still troublesome with switching song or adding songs, etc.

It really is the ESI dac causing problems; my RME ADI-2 dac runs flawlessly
Which one is musically better Sopper and can you just not use Linns app instead?
That’s hard to determine; I can’t A-B them (Volumio can’t handle 2 USB DACs plugged and switching between the two, Alsa errors, reboots, etc.)

From memory the RME is very good and with very useful features.
Combined with HAKAI and Volumio it’s at least on par with my Klimax dsm/1.
The ESI Gigaport HD+ is in some music parts more musical, but that is not reliable from memory.
The RME is also a joy to listen too..

So, unless I can A-B with reasonable time gap between A and B, I can’t really judge.
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
Cables: Trivium Audio Cables
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

lejonklou wrote:
matthias wrote:
lejonklou wrote: The DAC is like the cartridge of a turntable. What's driving it is far more important.
Fredrik,
I agree completely, but why then does any other DAC besides the ESI ruin the performance?

Matt
The isochronous transfer mode. Plus some other things it's doing in simple but goods ways.

It can be done even better, but it requires a lot of work. I think there's some coincidence involved that made ESI hit the sweet spot with Gigaport.
Fredrik,

I'd love to know how you found the ESI Gigaport. It's such a left field choice but matches the rest of the Hakai so beautifully.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Sopper wrote:
FairPlayMotty wrote:
Volumio and ESI gigaport HD+ still refuse to run stable, no matter what I try.
It can play an album, but I have to leave it that way; still troublesome with switching song or adding songs, etc.

It really is the ESI dac causing problems; my RME ADI-2 dac runs flawlessly
Sopper, the Linn app works well as does HiFi Cast.
Yes I know.

Things seems to go wrong when trying to switch or switching from music on NAS to Tidal or Qobuz or combined or use Kazoo + web ui or Volumio app.
Lego wrote:
Sopper wrote:Volumio and ESI gigaport HD+ still refuse to run stable, no matter what I try.
It can play an album, but I have to leave it that way; still troublesome with switching song or adding songs, etc.

It really is the ESI dac causing problems; my RME ADI-2 dac runs flawlessly
Which one is musically better Sopper and can you just not use Linns app instead?
That’s hard to determine; I can’t A-B them (Volumio can’t handle 2 USB DACs plugged and switching between the two, Alsa errors, reboots, etc.)

From memory the RME is very good and with very useful features.
Combined with HAKAI and Volumio it’s at least on par with my Klimax dsm/1.
The ESI Gigaport HD+ is in some music parts more musical, but that is not reliable from memory.
The RME is also a joy to listen too..

So, unless I can A-B with reasonable time gap between A and B, I can’t really judge.
Sopper,

The apps do get the Volumio bugs under control. Your initial listening sessions sound encumbered (had some of that here trying to compare my two Hakais) but promising. It's going to be very interesting to hear your further thoughts from A-B comparisons.

One rather strange thing I discovered on my first night of Hakai listening was that the HiRes version of Joni Mitchell, Blue played flawlessly via Volumio. I looked at the make-up of the files, the tagging etc. and couldn't discover what is different about that album. Great way to start listening to the Hakai!
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
Sopper
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 430
Joined: 2017-05-16 14:50
Location: The Netherlands

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by Sopper »

Hi res or not, doesn’t matter really, does it?
The ESI is not capable to play anything but 16/44 under Linux
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
Cables: Trivium Audio Cables
Lego
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2007-04-18 11:42
Location: glasgow

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by Lego »

Sopper wrote:
FairPlayMotty wrote:
Volumio and ESI gigaport HD+ still refuse to run stable, no matter what I try.
It can play an album, but I have to leave it that way; still troublesome with switching song or adding songs, etc.

It really is the ESI dac causing problems; my RME ADI-2 dac runs flawlessly
Sopper, the Linn app works well as does HiFi Cast.
Yes I know.

Things seems to go wrong when trying to switch or switching from music on NAS to Tidal or Qobuz or combined or use Kazoo + web ui or Volumio app.
Lego wrote:
Sopper wrote:Volumio and ESI gigaport HD+ still refuse to run stable, no matter what I try.
It can play an album, but I have to leave it that way; still troublesome with switching song or adding songs, etc.

It really is the ESI dac causing problems; my RME ADI-2 dac runs flawlessly
Which one is musically better Sopper and can you just not use Linns app instead?
That’s hard to determine; I can’t A-B them (Volumio can’t handle 2 USB DACs plugged and switching between the two, Alsa errors, reboots, etc.)

From memory the RME is very good and with very useful features.
Combined with HAKAI and Volumio it’s at least on par with my Klimax dsm/1.
The ESI Gigaport HD+ is in some music parts more musical, but that is not reliable from memory.
The RME is also a joy to listen too..

So, unless I can A-B with reasonable time gap between A and B, I can’t really judge.
If you can't tell the difference then there can't be much of difference ,after you plugged in esi did you feel like going back to rme ?
I know that tune
Sopper
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 430
Joined: 2017-05-16 14:50
Location: The Netherlands

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by Sopper »

I will try to make a recording this week
Not easy to match volume though

I was able to switch dac this evening, without restarting Volumio.
I couldn’t hear any specific difference between the ESI and the RME
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
Cables: Trivium Audio Cables
Sopper
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 430
Joined: 2017-05-16 14:50
Location: The Netherlands

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by Sopper »

Clips posted in HAKAI playground thread:
ESI Gigaport HD+ dac
RME ADI-2 dac, slow filter
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
Cables: Trivium Audio Cables
Sopper
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 430
Joined: 2017-05-16 14:50
Location: The Netherlands

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by Sopper »

This reflects why we can’t play 24/96 with ESI dac under Linux.

You may remember from my introduction to the configuration space (above) that ranges of hardware parameters tell the whole story only if these parameters are independent. It is for the more complicated cases that the second functionality of alsacap was created, which could be called that of a configuration space explorer. An ALSA device has to be given for this usage, and it has to be given in the same form as for any ALSA application, rather than as a card and device number as for the device overview. This is done with the -d option, which also accepts any valid ALSA device, not just hw:... devices. The -R option again selects a recording instead of playback device.

The other options allow you to fix the sampling rate (-r), the channel count (-c) and the sample format (-f) before the remaining parameter ranges are displayed. The important thing is that it sets these parameters in the same order in which they are given on the command line. This allows you to find out by trial and error if and how parameters depend on each other. For instance consider the following output for the first device of my second sound card (an Echoaudio GINA3G):

vs@schizo, ~/soft/sound-misc > ./alsacap -d hw:1,0
*** Exploring configuration space of device `hw:1,0' for playback ***
1..6 channels
Sampling rate 32000..100000 Hz
Sample formats: U8, S16_LE, S32_LE, S32_BE, S24_3LE
vs@schizo, ~/soft/sound-misc > ./alsacap -d hw:1,0 -c 1
*** Exploring configuration space of device `hw:1,0' for playback ***
Set number of channels to 1.
Parameter ranges remaining after these settings:
1 channel
Sampling rate 32000..100000 Hz
Sample formats: S32_LE, S32_BE
Significant bits: 32
Let's go through the output line by line. The first execution of alsacap displays the total parameter ranges for the given device. It can handle up to six channels with sampling rates between 32 and 100 kHz and in a number of formats. The second time, alsacap is called with the -c option to set the number of channels to mono. As expected, the only possible number of channels left is one. But surprise, surprise: The available sample formats have also changed, leaving only two 32-bit formats (little- and big-endian).

This is an example of the allowed range of one parameter (the sample format) depending on the choice of another (the number of channels). The last line in the example shows an additional feature of alsacap: If the sample format has been narrowed down to one bit width, the number of significant bits is printed. Some sound cards accept, say, 32 bit sample values, but discard some least significant bits. But all these values only represent the world according to ALSA. My sound card documentation merely mentions 24 bits, as well as a minimum sample rate of 25 kHz (continuously variable mode) and 8 kHz (preset). So the ALSA driver does not include all the card's features. On the other hand, who needs 8 kHz surround sound?

When fixing the sampling rate, alsacap prints out which sampling rate could actually be obtained, and the direction in which ALSA reports the actual rate differing from the requested (<, = or >). In my version (and perhaps other versions) of ALSA, this is erroneously always returned as >. I decided nevertheless to keep this feature in the hope that future versions of ALSA will return a meaningful value. In the mean time, ignore it.



Knowing this “logic”, now we have to find someone who knows how to adjust or “hack” the sequence of the checked parameters, so we can enjoy 24/96.
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
Cables: Trivium Audio Cables
User avatar
NinthWave
Member
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: 2019-01-09 03:55
Location: Mont-Saint-Hilaire, Qc CANADA
Contact:

GIGAPORT HD/HD+ in Stereo 24/96

Post by NinthWave »

Sopper wrote: 2018-12-23 10:27 Knowing this “logic”, now we have to find someone who knows how to adjust or “hack” the sequence of the checked parameters, so we can enjoy 24/96.
I do want to use the full capacity of this DAC but I am not linux competent enough to do it myself so what I did is:

Created an account on Alsa-Project and filed a ticket.
Was told to file a ticket at bugzilla.kernel.org
Created an account at bugzilla.kernel.org
filed the ticket: https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=203381

Hope we will get an answer.

Nicolas
Stream Magic 6v2 | HAKAI testing < Kairn < LK140 | LK85 < Ninka AKTIV
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Good work!

A kernel is what was needed from memory.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
NinthWave
Member
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: 2019-01-09 03:55
Location: Mont-Saint-Hilaire, Qc CANADA
Contact:

Please write ESI-Audio and ask a driver

Post by NinthWave »

I have reached a deadend on the ALSA part of having the ESI Gigaport HD+ to be set at 2-channels only and be able to play 24/96 files.

For those, if any, who are not aware of that, there is a Windows driver which allows to select 2-ch and set the Gigaport HD+ to handle 24/96 files but there is no such driver in Linux. As I was told by Bugzilla, unless someone want's to reverse engineer the Windows driver, only ESI-Audio can handle that.

I have wrote directly at ESI-Audio and asked them to develop a driver. I would please ask that you take two minutes of your time and do the same if you want to help this happen. Here is an exact copy of my request:
Please, develop a linux driver for Gigaport HD+

We are a community of audio audiophiles that fnd the quality of this DAC exceptional but are limited and dispointed by the lack of such driver.

A detailed explanation is available here:
https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=203381

Nicolas Boisvert
I do believe that unless the Hakai community gets into it, the DJ community (primary audience for Gigaport HD+) won't.

Nicolas
_____
I still don't have my own Gigaport HD+ as I am still in possession of the one loaned by ThomasOK.
Stream Magic 6v2 | HAKAI testing < Kairn < LK140 | LK85 < Ninka AKTIV
User avatar
Ron The Mon
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 301
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit
Contact:

Re: Please write ESI-Audio and ask a driver

Post by Ron The Mon »

NinthWave wrote: 2019-06-21 17:04 I have reached a deadend on the ALSA part of having the ESI Gigaport HD+ to be set at 2-channels only and be able to play 24/96 files.

For those, if any, who are not aware of that, there is a Windows driver which allows to select 2-ch and set the Gigaport HD+ to handle 24/96 files but there is no such driver in Linux. I was told, only ESI-Audio can handle that.


I do believe that unless the Hakai community gets into it, the DJ community (primary audience for Gigaport HD+) won't
NinthWave,
Question One:
What evidence have you that a HAKAI would sound better broadcasting in a higher resolution? My use of the GIGAPORT HD+ shows its' playback from input in 16/44 in XP and Windows7 compared to 24/96 to be be quite small. VERY, very, very small.

This is on the same computer I have built a semi-HAKAI. I am not trying to stop your exuberance, but have you considered a company the size of ESI has already tried this and failed? Most Apple headphone outputs sound better than any DAC in stereo, so what does ESI have to offer Mac users? Linux users are an even smaller minority than that.

I am not trying to discourage you but it is possible it doesn't sound any better in "Hi-Res". It is best to ignore folks like you and improve music for everyone.


Question Two:
What makes you think the "DJ community" is more influential than the "Hi-fi community?

They are one and the same. I live in Detroit, the home of Electronica. My city loves music. DJ=music. People who use computers to play music to the public are doing it for a living or as a hobby; either way, the want the best sound reproduction. A product that makes the music sound worse is bad.

Over the years, I have noticed really good PA/DJ equipment that excels over home consumer equipment.

The bottom line is; tell us a specific incident in which a song on a non-ESI DAC sounded better. Then we can compare that to a better 24/96 file and incident.

I personally have been listening to "Hi-Res" files for many years. "Hi-Res" has never once ever equaled "standard resolution". What are you guys listening to? Let me know the specifics. I think all Hi-Res is Hi-BS.

Ron The Mon
BS-Dectector
TMV
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2007-10-01 09:16
Location: Göteborg, Sweden

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by TMV »

The main reason to support 96k or higher is to be able to use FLAC files with these sample rates. If 96k is better compared to 48k is another question but I agree that the value of high sample rates seems low.

I'm using GIGAPORT HD+ with Asus Thinker board S and Volumio up to 96k so it's possible to run it with Arm+Linux (don't know about X86)
User avatar
NinthWave
Member
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: 2019-01-09 03:55
Location: Mont-Saint-Hilaire, Qc CANADA
Contact:

Re: Please write ESI-Audio and ask a driver

Post by NinthWave »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2019-06-23 03:02
NinthWave wrote: 2019-06-21 17:04 I have reached a deadend on the ALSA part of having the ESI Gigaport HD+ to be set at 2-channels only and be able to play 24/96 files.

For those, if any, who are not aware of that, there is a Windows driver which allows to select 2-ch and set the Gigaport HD+ to handle 24/96 files but there is no such driver in Linux. I was told, only ESI-Audio can handle that.


I do believe that unless the Hakai community gets into it, the DJ community (primary audience for Gigaport HD+) won't
NinthWave,
Question One:
What evidence have you that a HAKAI would sound better broadcasting in a higher resolution? My use of the GIGAPORT HD+ shows its' playback from input in 16/44 in XP and Windows7 compared to 24/96 to be be quite small. VERY, very, very small.
I have no evidence about that but since I am buying FLAC music at 7digital, which music is available in 24/96, I would at least appreciate having the opportunity of doing same as you; trial any difference and draw my own conclusions.

Ron The Mon wrote: 2019-06-23 03:02 I am not trying to discourage you but it is possible it doesn't sound any better in "Hi-Res".
You said it: it is possible it doesn't sound any better.

There is also the other possibilty that it does sound better and we won't know unless we can trial it.

Ron The Mon wrote: 2019-06-23 03:02It is best to ignore folks like you and improve music for everyone.
Sorry, but I feel what you are implying is that folks like me, essentially consist of all those here, except you.

Those folks are enthusiasticaly experimenting with a linux base HAKAI and, while ESI-Audio deemed it necessary to offer channel | bit depth customization under Windows but Mac/Linux users should remain silent and not even try to request something.

Do I get it right?

Ron The Mon wrote: 2019-06-23 03:02Question Two:
What makes you think the "DJ community" is more influential than the "Hi-fi community?
Maybe I did not express myself properly because this was not what I intended to imply.

What I intended to mean is that the way business usually works is that those with good customer care do listen to customers requests. From my side, I don't expect DJs with mobile apps probably running on Windows or MacOS to ask for something they won't use but, the HAKAI community is Linux based so it falls on us to make requests at ESI if we expect something to move.

Nicolas
Stream Magic 6v2 | HAKAI testing < Kairn < LK140 | LK85 < Ninka AKTIV
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Please write ESI-Audio and ask a driver

Post by lejonklou »

Ron,
I partly agree with your conclusions regarding "Hi-Res". I made some comparisons in the past and found that often the 16/44 version of a song was more musical than the higher bitrate downloads available from the same online store. And much better than the downloads was to rip a CD.

I have however run into some exceptions. For instance, the Hi-Res version of Daft Punk's Random Access Memories, which was a free download when buying the LP, sounds clearly better than the 16/44 version. There was also a song by The Arctic Monkey's that hcl sent me in formats 16/44 and XX/88 (don't remember whether it was 16 or 24 bit), which I thought was better in the higher resolution format. So in summary, I don't rule out Hi-Res, I just think it's often not done right, which then leaves 16/44 superior.

Speaking of online music quality, I did a few comparisons between Google Play (which I've previously praised on this forum) and Spotify (I have a premium account) this weekend and to my surprise, Spotify was clearly better every time! Something must have changed since I did this comparison a couple of years ago. However, I also noticed that some old recordings on Spotify that I have on vinyl sounded really flat and boring, completely robbed of the finesse that I know them to possess. So quality still appears random on the online streaming services.
Ron The Mon wrote: 2019-06-23 03:02 It is best to ignore folks like you and improve music for everyone.
I find this statement odd and even a bit rude. Perhaps you could have phrased it differently? I don't even understand what you're trying to say.
hcl
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 360
Joined: 2008-01-13 11:03
Location: Göteborg
Contact:

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by hcl »

I can confirm that high-res recordings have much better potential to sound good than the CD-format. This is based on tests done with both pro-recording equipment as well as on bought high-res music files. When doing my own recordings I have found that, with the equipment I have tested the higher the sample rat the better the recording. Please note that different equipment may perform better with othersample rates so do not take this as a general truth. Concerning bit depth, on my equipment it is not possible to record to anything but 24 bit resolution so can not test if there would be any preference for going directly to 16 bit, but that seems a bit absurd (from a mathematical standpoint) and as there always have to be some post recording edits applied recording in 16 bit would in most cases make the final product a bit noisy. However, any processing done after recording affects how the recordings are perceived and sample rate conversion is on of the more profound such processing stages as it involves both filtering and re-sampling.

It should be acknowledge that up-sampling in general does not improve anything but (maybe and in some cases) enabling the possibility to do rest of the signal processing in other possibly more desirable ways for example allowing for a less steep anti-alias filtering, thus often being used in context of the design of DACs. This means that music originally recorded or stored in low resolution generally can not be said to gain anything from being up-sampled. This has been found to have been done in numerous cases on files being sold as ”high-res files” (which obviously is a scam).

Also, most recording studios have been recorded music digitally in 24 bit 48 kHz for a long time and only the last 5-10 years most recordings are done in higher resolution, mostly 96 kHz. 192 kHz sample rate seem to be rarely used (even today), not because it is worse, but because it puts so much stress on the infra-structure and computing power during mixing that it is somewhat difficult to work with.

Another fact, which I find somewhat unfortunate is that as most digital recordings have been made with 48 kHz sample rate and CD is fixed to 44.1 sample rate and the fact that conversion between the two is one of the worst "standard" sample rate conversions that can be done, because it requires very long filters to accomplish reasonable precision and long filters are not what is desirable when dealing with dynamic signals, such as music. As so much music have gone through this general processing it can not also be ruled out that our ears are used to and possibly our equipment is more or less optimized in context of this characteristic sample rate flaw. This makes things more difficult as what in fact might be better will also come with a slightly different sound from what we are used to (missing this specific characteristic). Similar to the typical pitfall most of us have encountered when optimizing our equipment (choosing between the more hifi-ish appealing sound v.s. the more musically, but less less flattering sound).

Another and I think the overwhelming reason the CD version of many albums is found to be the best is that the songs have been mastered (monitored e.g. listened to) in CD format, so the final adjustments done have been in context of the CD-format characteristics (or rather the characteristics of the required sample rate conversion). Just taking the pre re-sample version of the same master may be better in some ways (as it is closer to the source), but it might also not be exactly ”right”. The potential however, if recorded and mixed in high resolution is a lot better if also mastered in its native format.

Our only released 192 kHz recording (on the Rocred Records label) definitely sounds better in its native format. I can give some examples here if you like(?), I’m a bit saturated with work at the moment, but if I get the time I will post a couple of clips here later on.
User avatar
Ron The Mon
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 301
Joined: 2014-07-17 17:17
Location: Detroit
Contact:

ESI/Linux/HAKAI Context

Post by Ron The Mon »

lejonklou wrote: 2019-06-23 22:42
Ron The Mon wrote: 2019-06-23 03:02 It is best to ignore folks like you and improve music for everyone.
I find this statement odd and even a bit rude. Perhaps you could have phrased it differently? I don't even understand what you're trying to say.
Fredrik,
How's this?:
"It is best [for ESI as a sustainable company] to ignore [rare, Linux using] folks like you [, NinthWave,] and improve music [and functions] for everyone [, meaning the majority of its' customer base]."

Everything I wrote in my last post was in the context of what was written prior in this thread. Specifically, NinthWave (and thread-starter FairPlayMotty) is asking a well established company to help him. NinthWave has mentioned here he has spent ZERO dollars toward their company (about an extremely cheap $200 DAC). He expects that company to provide support on a device the product was never intended. I would bet the budget for the support of the GIGAPORT HD+ has expired.

I perhaps could be wrong but nevertheless think it naive to expect support.

I just finished a seven month contract working for a German firm. I build robotic assembly equipment. When these types of jobs are quoted, the most expensive variable is software programming. The last project I worked on went over budget very quickly during programming. The in-house German and Romanian programmers were put aside and contract Americans brought in to complete the job. This cost more money but was guaranteed. These engineers earn $40-$65 an hour. These projects take weeks to complete, especially if one-offs.

I bring all this up as it is probable ESI has no in-house programmers. They would more than likely have to contract-hire someone to attend to NinthWave's wish. As he has spent no money on a single ESI component, why would they do it?

The GIGAPORT HD+ design was started when Windows XP controlled 72% of all computers worldwide. They had to develop software to control it. ASIO is a cheap open-source easy solution in Windows. XP is still about 6% of the market in 2019(!), probably dozens of times more than Linux and Raspberry Pi combined.

If I worked at ESI and was reading this thread and Lejonklou Forum Category, I would abandon any software support and look into potential hardware improvements as a way to increase sales. To change components in the GIGAPORT HD+ in the surface-mount assembly process and test them is far cheaper than software changes. Manufacturing a SUPERDUPERHD+++ GIGAPORT that was stereo output only with improved quality, eliminating superfluous components and connections could allow a product available across all software platforms.

My wife has a saying, "Be careful what you wish for, you might get it".

I imagine ESI answering NinthWave (and other HAKAI users) with a piece of software that allows for Hi-Def audio...


...and an additional digital volume control for each channel in addition to a Master digital volume control... and spatial software to improve room acoustics... and direct output bypassing the need for a pre-amp... and a graphic EQ to play with each songs sound... all which pass through even more software settings and functions.

Isn't this essentially what Linn did with their streamers?

Ron The Mon
Skeptik
User avatar
NinthWave
Member
Member
Posts: 29
Joined: 2019-01-09 03:55
Location: Mont-Saint-Hilaire, Qc CANADA
Contact:

Re: ESI/Linux/HAKAI Context

Post by NinthWave »

HAKAI is a do-it yourself project for enthusiasts, assembled from off the shelf parts and relying on linux, an open source OS made from enthusiasts. ALSA is also developped by enthusiasts as it is linux based.

The Gigaport HD+ is not yet defined in the ALSA driver and, given that ESI-Audio would share the specs with ALSA project, as they did with Steinberg for the Windows driver, an or a team of enthusiasts could add the Gigaport HD+ to the driver, for free, just for the thrill of doing something for themselves and others, not for any cash retribution.

There is also a saying, pardon me for my literal translation from french: "You won't know if you don't try"

Now, I may not have bought the DAC yet, but one has to start somewhere and as an enthusiast, I already got all the other parts. The DAC was not given to me but loaned by another enthusiast so I could do three things: put the loaner's Hakai in a working condition as I had both time and some enthusiasm, do some trial as other do and finally, buy one when cashflow is available.

As I read from other members on this specific topic, I am not the only one who would appreciate to hear the full potential of this DAC, given some quality recordings are available.

I do agree with Ron the Mon on the low business interest of ESI-Audio to shell money on this but, given that some enhusiasts at ALSA-Project would do it free, I don't see why I should "curb my enthusiasm" and not even try to have something put in motion ???
Stream Magic 6v2 | HAKAI testing < Kairn < LK140 | LK85 < Ninka AKTIV
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Everything I wrote in my last post was in the context of what was written prior in this thread. Specifically, NinthWave (and thread-starter FairPlayMotty) is asking a well established company to help him.
How can there be any harm in asking for a relatively minor piece of development?
Most Apple headphone outputs sound better than any DAC in stereo
Could you please provide a single piece of evidence that's true? It shouldn't be hard for the self-declared B-S Detector.

For the record, I convert all hi res flac files to 16/44 because I can't tell any difference in sound quality (though there's scientific evidence that the human body reacts to parts of the hi res spectrum that the human ear can't hear). I take a live and let live approach to hi res - if people want to pursue it, it's their choice and their business.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: ESI/Linux/HAKAI Context

Post by lejonklou »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2019-06-26 21:35Fredrik,
How's this?:
"It is best [for ESI as a sustainable company] to ignore [rare, Linux using] folks like you [, NinthWave,] and improve music [and functions] for everyone [, meaning the majority of its' customer base]."
Thanks mr Skeptik, I now understand.

My initial impression was that it was we enthusiasts who had better ignore folks like our fellow enthusiast NinthWave. Which we of course won't do.

I agree with NinthWave and FairPlayMotty that there can't be any harm in asking ESI. As Gigaport is in their opinion is an old product will of course make it unlikely they will allocate any resources to it. But it's not impossible they already have something lying around that they haven't bothered to release.
FairPlayMotty
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 769
Joined: 2018-08-28 11:10
Location: Scotland

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

I do agree with Ron the Mon on the low business interest of ESI-Audio to shell money on this but, given that some enhusiasts at ALSA-Project would do it free, I don't see why I should "curb my enthusiasm" and not even try to have something put in motion ???
You're right to have enthusiasm and positivity. There's not enough of it around. I joined this Hakai forum with a degree of scepticism. I now have a Hakai server/player and a Hakai dedicated player delivering the best front end audio I have ever experienced, at very low cost. I'm forever indebted to Fredrik for his generosity in sharing the design. My extremely costly turntable/phono pre-amplifier and cartridge have possibly been used three times since the Hakai utterly revitalised my enthusiasm for HiFi and digital music. My entire system (except the turntable etc,) now sounds way better than it did before.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by lejonklou »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2019-06-27 22:47
I do agree with Ron the Mon on the low business interest of ESI-Audio to shell money on this but, given that some enhusiasts at ALSA-Project would do it free, I don't see why I should "curb my enthusiasm" and not even try to have something put in motion ???
You're right to have enthusiasm and positivity. There's not enough of it around. I joined this Hakai forum with a degree of scepticism. I now have a Hakai server/player and a Hakai dedicated player delivering the best front end audio I have ever experienced, at very low cost. I'm forever indebted to Fredrik for his generosity in sharing the design. My extremely costly turntable/phono pre-amplifier and cartridge have possibly been used three times since the Hakai utterly revitalised my enthusiasm for HiFi and digital music. My entire system (except the turntable etc,) now sounds way better than it did before.
Thank you! It made me very happy to read this, FairPlayMotty.
Post Reply