GIGAPORT HD/HD+

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by maffe »

Sorry for opening up this can of worms again;)
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...and Another Can of Worms

Post by Ron The Mon »

jewa wrote: 2020-01-22 09:13
The GIGAPORT eX is Thunderbolt3/USB-C and can carry more juice; that will work great with Macs. Macs can also now play at 24/196. We'll have to wait 6 or 7 weeks to hear how it sounds.
From the GIGAPORT eX specs:

USB 3.1 Audio Interface with USB-C connector (different connection cables included)
USB 2.0 compatible

So no worries regarding motherboard.

(Also I have just asked Jenving about any plans making a USB-C cable.)
jewa,
This is a huge worry! Every motherboard I have seen recommended for HAKAI is USB 2.0 and/or USB 3.0.

None have USB 3.1 or Thunderbolt 3 capability.

This is not a cable and connector compatibility issue. It is a protocol, power, and data transfer speed issue.

"Compatible" simply means being dumbed-down to the lowest common denominator. Even though ESI is saying the new GIGAPORT eX is USB 2.0 compatible, it doesn't guarantee it will be 3.0 compatible, meaning; what is the default?

What does all this mean?

One of the main reasons ethernet is used successfully in audio streaming is speed. That may be one of the factors why the HD+ sounds so good, the secret sauce Mr. Motty asked about. Which USB protocol are they actually using? Is it USB 2.0 or USB 3.0?

The $32,000 Accuphase DC-950 DAC FairPlayMotty alluded to is only USB 2.0 capable. It may sound good with their CD transport connection. But USB 2.0? Seriously!? For 30K?

A month or so ago, I wanted to transfer a few thousand photos from one Mac mini to another (both 2019 models). I connected a USB 2.0 drive and copied off one and then plugged in to the other. This process took 20 minutes each way. Last week I had another 2,200 photos and videos to transfer. I went downstairs and connected one Mac mini directly to the other via a Thunderbolt cable. It took seconds. SECONDS! That is the difference in data transfer speeds.


USB 1.1= 0.012Gps, 2.5W
USB 2.0= 0.5 Gps, 2.5W
USB 3.0= 5.0 Gps, 4.5W
USB 3.1= 10.0 Gps, 50-100W
Thunderbolt 3= 40.0 Gps, 100W

Above is comparative data transfer speeds and power transfer ratings. Just the difference between USB 2.0 and USB 3.0 is significant; ten times the speed and almost double the power. USB 2.0 to 3.1 is twenty times faster and power transfer 20-50 times more. Considering the GIGAPORT HD+ & eX are both powered by the computer means the DAC is getting a much better power supply.

The reason the new Mac mini (with internal DAC) sounds so good is probably because it was designed knowing its' data transfer speed had to be exceptional. Internally, it is very fast. Using source-first principles (computer principles actually; garbage in, garbage out), I am not surprised what I've heard in digital electronics the past few years.

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Last edited by Ron The Mon on 2020-01-24 22:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by lejonklou »

Ron, my experience with digital audio points in a different direction than what you're suggesting in your last post.

Higher speed is not better for audio. The opposite is not necessarily true either, but more likely. On the HAKAIs that I built, the USB 2 ports sound better than USB 3. And the lower the clock frequency of the motherboard, the more musical it sounded.

Then you confuse current capacity with quality. The DAC doesn't need much power. The reason why it's good is a couple of things, one of them being that the transfer is isochronous. This is also why the motherboards play such a dramatic role in the performance of HAKAI - it's married to the DAC and will influence its performance both through the clock and the USB power quality (not quantity).
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Re: ...and Another Can of Worms

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Ron The Mon wrote:
From the GIGAPORT eX specs:

USB 3.1 Audio Interface with USB-C connector (different connection cables included)
USB 2.0 compatible

So no worries regarding motherboard.

(Also I have just asked Jenving about any plans making a USB-C cable.)
The $32,000 Accuphase DC-950 DAC FairPlayMotty alluded to is only USB 2.0 capable. It may sound good with their CD transport connection. But USB 2.0? Seriously!? For 30K?

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Accuphase has a different and very sophisticated approach to DAC design than any other DAC manufacturer that I'm aware of. The Australians use it for computer audio.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-01-23 09:48 Higher speed is not better for audio. The opposite is not necessarily true either, but more likely. On the HAKAIs that I built, the USB 2 ports sound better than USB 3. And the lower the clock frequency of the motherboard, the more musical it sounded.
This is indeed a very hot topic.
Emile from Taiko Audio claims that the highest specs USB3.1 output of his Extreme server sounds best.
Some other very experienced people claim that some motherboards with higher CPUs sound better than these with lower CPUs but only when they are supplied with excellent power supplies.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topi ... nt-1014096

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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote: 2020-01-23 11:07
lejonklou wrote: 2020-01-23 09:48 Higher speed is not better for audio. The opposite is not necessarily true either, but more likely. On the HAKAIs that I built, the USB 2 ports sound better than USB 3. And the lower the clock frequency of the motherboard, the more musical it sounded.
This is indeed a very hot topic.
Emile from Taiko Audio claims that the highest specs USB3.1 output of his Extreme server sounds best.
Some other very experienced people claim that some motherboards with higher CPUs sound better than these with lower CPUs but only when they are supplied with excellent power supplies.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topi ... nt-1014096

Matt
Indeed hot. And there are two really important things to keep in mind:

1. What are they listening for and how are they judging better/worse?

2. What does the entire digital replay design look like? Depending on the approach the answer to "what's the optimal property of X?" can vary a lot.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Emile from Taiko Audio claims that the highest specs USB3.1 output of his Extreme server sounds best.
Some other very experienced people claim that some motherboards with higher CPUs sound better than these with lower CPUs but only when they are supplied with excellent power supplies.
As far as CPU power goes I've found the audiophilestyle forum less reliable than the Australian forum. And the vast majority of commercial motherboard streamers seem to be based on either Atoms or the J series of low power CPUs from Intel, e.g. the lauded 12k Belgian player is based as far as I can see on an Asrock Intel J series processor and otherwise largely follows the Australian design type.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-01-23 23:16 Indeed hot. And there are two really important things to keep in mind:

1. What are they listening for and how are they judging better/worse?

2. What does the entire digital replay design look like? Depending on the approach the answer to "what's the optimal property of X?" can vary a lot.
ad 1. Of course is evaluation with the tune method mandatory.

ad 2. Yes, for example I do not care about playing files from a NAS, I am only interested in streaming from Qobuz.

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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by matthias »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-01-23 23:28 As far as CPU power goes I've found the audiophilestyle forum less reliable than the Australian forum. And the vast majority of commercial motherboard streamers seem to be based on either Atoms or the J series of low power CPUs from Intel, e.g. the lauded 12k Belgian player is based as far as I can see on an Asrock Intel J series processor and otherwise largely follows the Australian design type.
Let us consider the Australian design type, the pick of the bunch is Antipodes Audio.
The best sounding combo is CX/EX.
The CX is a server with a 6 core i7 processor, even the EX has a quad core Celeron processor.
For Roon for example is a high powered CPU server favorable, it is like driving a high powered car in demanding traffic circumstances, more safe, more fun:-)

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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Let us consider the Australian design type, the pick of the bunch is Antipodes Audio.
The best sounding combo is CX/EX.
The CX is a server with a 6 core i7 processor, even the EX has a quad core Celeron processor.
For Roon for example is a high powered CPU server favorable, it is like driving a high powered car in demanding traffic circumstances, more safe, more fun:-)

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I think the pick of the bunch from the Southern hemisphere is probably the final build by Tasso etc. or the best SotM model. I think they compared the two and they were very close.

I don't get the appeal of Roon but I don't think you need a high power CPU to run it. There's a Linux version I believe. I see so many CA people on the audiophilestyle forum running Windows with an iCore 7 to accommodate Roon. Liking the data on music etc. to the point of running a fan in the case is barmy to me. I don't need an app like Roon to tell me anything about the musicians, recording date or similar music. I've been immersed in music since I first heard Joni Mitchell's Don Juan's Reckless Daughter on the radio as a fifteen year old.

Linux distros for me are likely to sound best. The extra processing power is not needed. I believe from reading the Oz forum that Mark Jenkins heard an early version of the SnakeOil OS in a system shoot out which may explain the similar options in his OS. The SnakeOil OS was written by Kith and Co. as part of the work done on that forum.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Maybe everyone knew this but I didn't. The Intel J series of motherboards are a different generation of Intel Celeron. So still low CPU.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD+ vs. eX

Post by Ron The Mon »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-01-23 09:48 Ron, my experience with digital audio points in a different direction than what you're suggesting in your last post.

Higher speed is not better for audio. The opposite is not necessarily true either, but more likely. On the HAKAIs that I built, the USB 2 ports sound better than USB 3. And the lower the clock frequency of the motherboard, the more musical it sounded.
I amended my post above to add USB 1.1, which is what the GIGAPORT HD+ is. In that case, you shouldn't find USB 3.0 better in any way over USB 2.0 as the protocol forces 1.1/2.0 to be used. Have you used an actual USB 3.0 DAC with HAKAI tried into both types of connectors?

Why is ESI now using a USB-C connector and USB 3.1 protocol on the new GIGAPORT eX model? That connector and the added adapter cable (and/or dongle) will add costs. It must be for performance or compatibility reasons. I don't see it as a marketing advantage.

We will see if your theory is true as I expect several members here to buy it.
Then you confuse current capacity with quality. The DAC doesn't need much power. The reason why it's good is a couple of things, one of them being that the transfer is isochronous.

There are power control requests and protocol differences which affect power transfer. The logarithms used may be more precise resulting in a better transfer. It may not exactly have to do with ultimate power. Also, the HD+ and eX both have eight RCA outs and two headphone jacks. If they are all being used at the same time, which is part of the design, how can a more stable power not help?

This is also why the motherboards play such a dramatic role in the performance of HAKAI - it's married to the DAC and will influence its performance both through the clock and the USB power quality (not quantity).
They are married to each other via USB protocols, especially the isochronous audio transfer protocol, so how does that not matter? Quality is also a function of connectors and cables. The standard for cables and connectors in USB-C is much higher than any other USB type.

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Re: GIGAPORT HD+ vs. eX

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-01-25 00:09
lejonklou wrote: 2020-01-23 09:48 Ron, my experience with digital audio points in a different direction than what you're suggesting in your last post.


Why is ESI now using a USB-C connector and USB 3.1 protocol on the new GIGAPORT eX model? That connector and the added adapter cable (and/or dongle) will add costs.

Ron The Mon
Fashion and compatibility with other equipment which uses USB C. The cost differences will be very small indeed.

My new phone uses USB C rather than microUSB. I get zero extra functionality - I simply had to buy yet more cables.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD+ vs. eX

Post by Ron The Mon »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-01-25 00:19
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-01-25 00:09 Why is ESI now using a USB-C connector and USB 3.1 protocol on the new GIGAPORT eX model? That connector and the added adapter cable (and/or dongle) will add costs.
Fashion and compatibility with other equipment which uses USB-C. The cost differences will be very small indeed.
Connector, new software, iOS app, iPad OS app, extra cable/dongle, combined will not be very small.
My new phone uses USB-C rather than micro-USB. I get zero extra functionality - I simply had to buy yet more cables.
Which phone? Connecting a USB-C to USB-C dedicated cable increases power charging and data transfer speed into a USB-C computer. It is a LOT faster, I have done it.

It is also a functionality improvement to be able to connect a cable to your phone in the dark or while driving; no need to look down at the proper orientation. It is also less affected by dirt or damage.

If I am reading correctly, the new GIGAPORT eX also can be run from an iPhone or iPad. This could also be a reason, though you would need a big pocket to listen with headphones.

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Re: GIGAPORT HD+ vs. eX

Post by FairPlayMotty »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-01-25 00:42
FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-01-25 00:19
Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-01-25 00:09 Why is ESI now using a USB-C connector and USB 3.1 protocol on the new GIGAPORT eX model? That connector and the added adapter cable (and/or dongle) will add costs.
Fashion and compatibility with other equipment which uses USB-C. The cost differences will be very small indeed.
Connector, new software, iOS app, iPad OS app, extra cable/dongle, combined will not be very small.
My new phone uses USB-C rather than micro-USB. I get zero extra functionality - I simply had to buy yet more cables.
Which phone? Connecting a USB-C to USB-C dedicated cable increases power charging and data transfer speed into a USB-C computer. It is a LOT faster, I have done it.

Ron The Mon
My last three phones have had fast charge. That's going back five or six years. This is a Xiaomi Redmi Pro.

The cost of apps and lack of apps on the Apple ecosystem has always steered me towards the Android ecosystem. Let alone bang for your buck when it comes to hardware specs for the phone itself. I have an iPad gathering dust because the apps to do what HiFi Cast does either don't exist on ios or cost more than I'll pay. If you go the ios route you've chosen the more expensive route.

The hardware costs of USB C and USB 3 are de minimus.

The math isn't tricky. You go down the Apple route you have programmers looking at roughly 10-15% of the global market. If I was an app developer I'd go where most of the people are.

On a prior visit to this forum you implied it would cost a large amount of money to write the Linux required to get the Gigaport HD + to recognise 24/96 on Linux. There was a guy on the forum at the time who would have done it for free. He gave up - I believe he got a tad fed up with the lack of detailed knowledge and cynicism on this forum at times. When it hits its place in the Linux project queue it will also be done for free. Ninthwave in his brief time here at least took some action. Change isn't as tricky as most people think.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD+ vs. eX

Post by matthias »

Ron The Mon wrote: 2020-01-25 00:42 Connecting a USB-C to USB-C dedicated cable increases power charging and data transfer speed into a USB-C computer. It is a LOT faster, I have done it.
It is also a functionality improvement to be able to connect a cable to your phone in the dark or while driving; no need to look down at the proper orientation. It is also less affected by dirt or damage.
Agree,
it would be a great achievement if all manufacturers use USB-C for input and output.
That means particularly output of motherboards and inputs of DACs.
DACs like the ESI Gigaport eX or the Khadas Tone Board make with their USB-C a music lovers life much easier.
Most USB cable manufacturers are not up to date, there seem not to be a lot of good USB-C to USB-C cables available.

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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by ThomasOK »

As usual there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I looked at Ios vs. Android market share and the first one to pop up indeed showed a worldwide split of 15% to 85% but the next two analyses, which were from different companies, showed a 25% to 75% share. Going in a bit more depth Ios is more popular in the US and Japan and has been more popular in the UK, Ireland and Sweden although now those three are pretty much evenly split. Availability of apps? Well, as of December 2018 Android had 2.6 million apps and Ios had 2 million. Yep, Android has more but how important is that once both are over 2 million apps - how many do you use? I imagine if you went deeper there are likely to be significant differences in apps in different languages so availability of useable apps probably depends on where you are.

As for the idea that all the app writers going to Android due to the number of users, you left out the most important fact that is likely to figure into which platform you design apps for - how much money you will make. On this front the resource I found (a blog about designing apps for mobile platforms) had this statement: "In the 3rd quarter of 2019, Apple’s iOS apps generated $14.2 billion, whereas Android apps earned $7.7 billion through the Google Play Store." This probably is also due to app downloads of 28.4 billion on the Apple store vs. over 20 billion for the Google Store according to App Annie. So there are a few more statistics that would tend to indicate that the playing filed is not as lopsided as some might think. Just sayin' ;-)
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by V.A.MKD »

Yes ThomasOK, you are right ...
I don't have data about Apps and all around apps, but have data about iOS vs. Android Phones and what my figures say was 23% to 77% share (3-4 years old data). Trend was increasing on iOS side = your data are OK. I was working on Investment Project for Mobile Phone Accessories ...
ThomasOK wrote: 2020-01-25 16:56 As usual there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I looked at Ios vs. Android market share and the first one to pop up indeed showed a worldwide split of 15% to 85% but the next two analyses, which were from different companies, showed a 25% to 75% share. Going in a bit more depth Ios is more popular in the US and Japan and has been more popular in the UK, Ireland and Sweden although now those three are pretty much evenly split. Availability of apps? Well, as of December 2018 Android had 2.6 million apps and Ios had 2 million. Yep, Android has more but how important is that once both are over 2 million apps - how many do you use? I imagine if you went deeper there are likely to be significant differences in apps in different languages so availability of useable apps probably depends on where you are.

As for the idea that all the app writers going to Android due to the number of users, you left out the most important fact that is likely to figure into which platform you design apps for - how much money you will make. On this front the resource I found (a blog about designing apps for mobile platforms) had this statement: "In the 3rd quarter of 2019, Apple’s iOS apps generated $14.2 billion, whereas Android apps earned $7.7 billion through the Google Play Store." This probably is also due to app downloads of 28.4 billion on the Apple store vs. over 20 billion for the Google Store according to App Annie. So there are a few more statistics that would tend to indicate that the playing filed is not as lopsided as some might think. Just sayin' ;-)
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-01-25 16:56 Availability of apps? Well, as of December 2018 Android had 2.6 million apps and Ios had 2 million. Yep, Android has more but how important is that once both are over 2 million apps - how many do you use? I imagine if you went deeper there are likely to be significant differences in apps in different languages so availability of useable apps probably depends on where you are.
Interesting reading Thomas and thanks for the stats update! My iPad usage is minimal - I deeply regret not buying an Android tablet instead. Here's why. On Android you can go to the app store and get numerous streaming apps at zero cost or a small cost for the premium version - say HiFi Cast. Sure ios has lots of streaming apps - most of the ones I downloaded are looking for the user to stream from iTunes. In my book that's very limited streaming capability - my iTunes days were over when I stopped using the iPod Classic. The ability to stream flac files from a NAS is limited to (as far as I could see) apps that would be considered substandard in the Play store.

Frankly if I had a $ for every PC, IT or audio forum where an ios user asks why the software isn't available for the Mac I'd be retired. It's a locked eco system. I've had a nephew at university send me draft essays on economics entered into a MacBook Air. He could only give or receive RTF so lost a lot of his formatting. Apple revels in the isolation. Their customers pay the penalty.

Lots of kids are under the impression that Apple invented the mouse, PC, GUI etc. As you'll no doubt be aware Apple invented none of those things despite the numerous lawsuits.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-01-25 16:56 As usual there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I looked at Ios vs. Android market share and the first one to pop up indeed showed a worldwide split of 15% to 85% but the next two analyses, which were from different companies, showed a 25% to 75% share.
I dug out the source of my global market share data which was sourced from statista.com and was second quarter 2018.

That data showed Android at 88% and IOS was just below 12% - the tiny gap between these two figures and 100% may be sampling error or people with Windows phones (the fools!).
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by lejonklou »

Enough about the operating system of your phones.

Please get back to discussing Gigaport in this thread!
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by FairPlayMotty »

It's worth adding that the forum is being distracted by Mac Mini discussions. There's already a separate Mac Mini with ESI Gigaport HD + forum topic within the Hakai forum.
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Re: GIGAPORT HD/HD+

Post by lejonklou »

FairPlayMotty wrote: 2020-01-27 10:13 It's worth adding that the forum is being distracted by Mac Mini discussions. There's already a separate Mac Mini with ESI Gigaport HD + forum.
The Mac Mini is discussed partly because Ron The Mon found its headphone output capable of delivering music with outstanding quality. Therefore it's of high interest to the forum and not a distraction.

If you have any further thoughts around this, please send them to me by pm.
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New GIGAPORT eX

Post by matthias »

Hi,

the price of the new ESI Gigaport eX is 169 Euro (VAT included) in Germany.
It seems to be available mid March.

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