DAC discussions

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lejonklou
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Re: DAC discussions

Post by lejonklou » 2018-12-31 17:01

Sopper wrote:
2018-12-28 20:37
The DACs I like to try and test must have (all) the following specifications:
- The dac runs in adaptive isonchronous mode
- The dac is capable to play 24/96 or 24/192
- The dac has stereo output (and not 8 outputs like the ESI)
- The dac is affordable... ESI gigaport HD+ price point (+/- €160)
- The dac is not bad measured by Amirm (audiosciencereview.com)
I don't think there is any such DAC. And specification number 3 and 5 are IMHO completely pointless.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by Sopper » 2018-12-31 17:25

lejonklou wrote:
2018-12-31 17:01
Sopper wrote:
2018-12-28 20:37
- The dac has stereo output (and not 8 outputs like the ESI)
I don't think there is any such DAC. And specification number 3 and 5 are IMHO completely pointless.
3 is not pointless imo, unless specific drivers are written for Linux.
Linux recognises the ESI gigaport as 8 channel dac, that’s why we can’t play 24/96

5 is open for debate, yes, but good measurements indicate a proper build unit. In the hype of DACs, it amazes me that some DACs of respected companies are plain bad and not capable to convert digital to analogue without distortion and added noise...
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Re: DAC discussions

Post by lejonklou » 2018-12-31 17:34

If Linux is the problem with point 3, OK then.

Measurements are vastly overrated and should never be a primary selection criterion. How well do you think an LP12 measures? Terribly! Still it will beat any DAC in musicality. That's how silly it is.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2018-12-31 17:36

My only issue with audiosciencereview is that many reviews ignore the most important measurement, i.e. how good it sounds. I value what my ears tell me.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2018-12-31 17:46

I asked them already and they are not putting any effort in Linux
I'll talk to the guy at ESI who was very co-operative before. God knows ESI is getting a lot of business from the Hakai project and it wouldn't take much effort from them.

Happy New Year everyone!
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Re: DAC discussions

Post by Sopper » 2018-12-31 17:54

Alright, points noted
We have a different approach it seems.

In my world measurements are the first hints of a well designed unit.
Measurements of distortion in audible range can’t be stated as “musical” distortion...
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Re: DAC discussions

Post by lejonklou » 2018-12-31 18:51

Sopper wrote:
2018-12-31 17:54
Alright, points noted
We have a different approach it seems.

In my world measurements are the first hints of a well designed unit.
Measurements of distortion in audible range can’t be stated as “musical” distortion...
No, distortion is never positive. The issue is that the correlation between what we measure and what we hear is very low. So certain kinds of distortion can be easily tolerated by our ears, while other kinds are perceived as horrible even when the levels are miniscule.

This is the reason why the "near zero distortion" amplifiers of the 80's were horrible and an LP12, which measures terribly in many areas, is fantastic. In my opinion, any focus on distortion figures is likely to lead wrong unless you are an absolute expert in the field, know what you are looking for and preferably can make your own measurements.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by Lego » 2019-01-02 17:37

Sopper wrote:
2018-12-31 17:54
Alright, points noted
We have a different approach it seems.

In my world measurements are the first hints of a well designed unit.
Measurements of distortion in audible range can’t be stated as “musical” distortion...
In your world there is some kind of weird belief system going on that you have failed to demonstrate to us as fact.I find it hard to believe in 2019 we are having an argument about sound quality and distortion measurements.Please don't drag things backwards Sopper
I know that tune

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by Sopper » 2019-01-02 19:33

???
What do you mean Lego?
I fail to understand your reply...
Lego wrote:
2019-01-02 17:37
In your world there is some kind of weird belief system going on that you have failed to demonstrate to us as fact.I find it hard to believe in 2019 we are having an argument about sound quality and distortion measurements.Please don't drag things backwards Sopper
Drag things backwards, what?
And what do I need to demonstrate as fact?
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Re: DAC discussions

Post by Sopper » 2019-01-05 17:46

Found the solution in another ESI dac.
Isochronous adaptive: ESI dr. Dac prime
24/96 Stereo via usb Input

https://www.esi-audio.com/products/drdacprime/
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Re: DAC discussions

Post by lejonklou » 2019-01-06 01:18

Sopper wrote:
2019-01-05 17:46
Found the solution in another ESI dac.
Isochronous adaptive: ESI dr. Dac prime
24/96 Stereo via usb Input

https://www.esi-audio.com/products/drdacprime/
Never tried it. But we did try UDJ6 (I think it was called that), which was very similar in construction to Gigaport, but it was nowhere as good.

If you try DrDAC, I'd be interested in your findings. And clips would of course be most welcome! Worth nothing is that it's completely different to Gigaport in design.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by Sopper » 2019-01-06 09:40

lejonklou wrote:
2019-01-06 01:18
Sopper wrote:
2019-01-05 17:46
Found the solution in another ESI dac.
Isochronous adaptive: ESI dr. Dac prime
24/96 Stereo via usb Input

https://www.esi-audio.com/products/drdacprime/
Never tried it. But we did try UDJ6 (I think it was called that), which was very similar in construction to Gigaport, but it was nowhere as good.

If you try DrDAC, I'd be interested in your findings. And clips would of course be most welcome! Worth nothing is that it's completely different to Gigaport in design.
I will evaluate and make clips after some time.
It needs some warming up time :)
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Re: DAC discussions

Post by matthias » 2019-01-06 13:03

Sopper wrote:
2019-01-05 17:46
Found the solution in another ESI dac.
Isochronous adaptive: ESI dr. Dac prime
24/96 Stereo via usb Input

https://www.esi-audio.com/products/drdacprime/
Are you sure that this DAC is not discontinued?
It is listed on the ESI site under Archived Products and in contrast to the Gigaport not offered by Thomann, the biggest european seller.

Matt
LP12 / Exposure / JBL3677

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by Sopper » 2019-01-06 21:45

matthias wrote:
2019-01-06 13:03
Sopper wrote:
2019-01-05 17:46
Found the solution in another ESI dac.
Isochronous adaptive: ESI dr. Dac prime
24/96 Stereo via usb Input

https://www.esi-audio.com/products/drdacprime/
Are you sure that this DAC is not discontinued?
It is listed on the ESI site under Archived Products and in contrast to the Gigaport not offered by Thomann, the biggest european seller.

Matt
This specific dac is not available anymore; discontinued.
I found one on a German internet shop, new; so I was lucky.
# HAKAI # Sagatun mono + Tundra mono # Harbeth SHL5+ 40th Ann # Mogami Neglex III 2803 + 2804

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by OscarH » 2020-03-02 12:38

Just out of curiosity - which DACs have people actually tried?

I certainly don't doubt that the ESI Gigaport recommendation is well founded, but since I have a number of USB DACs at home I won't be able to resist testing them with the Hakai anyway...

Maybe the comparisons will be futile, maybe there are surprises? Should at least be interesting.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-03-02 16:15

OscarH wrote:
2020-03-02 12:38
Just out of curiosity - which DACs have people actually tried?

I certainly don't doubt that the ESI Gigaport recommendation is well founded, but since I have a number of USB DACs at home I won't be able to resist testing them with the Hakai anyway...

Maybe the comparisons will be futile, maybe there are surprises? Should at least be interesting.
I've only tried the Gigaport. Some time ago Sopper tried a highly regarded €2k DAC and I think it was very similar to the gigaport unless one filter was used.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by OscarH » 2020-03-03 09:23

Having done a few initial experiments the only firm conclusion is that the Gigaport has a rather low output volume. To the point where I’m running out of amplifier if I’m in a party mood.

I guess you can only do so much with a 5V power supply.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by lejonklou » 2020-03-03 10:02

OscarH wrote:
2020-03-03 09:23
Having done a few initial experiments the only firm conclusion is that the Gigaport has a rather low output volume. To the point where I’m running out of amplifier if I’m in a party mood.

I guess you can only do so much with a 5V power supply.
No it doesn't have a low output volume (and 5V is more than enough).

Please check your settings, something is wrong.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by OscarH » 2020-03-03 10:12

lejonklou wrote:
2020-03-03 10:02
OscarH wrote:
2020-03-03 09:23
Having done a few initial experiments the only firm conclusion is that the Gigaport has a rather low output volume. To the point where I’m running out of amplifier if I’m in a party mood.

I guess you can only do so much with a 5V power supply.
No it doesn't have a low output volume (and 5V is more than enough).

Please check your settings, something is wrong.
It is lower than other USB DACs I’ve tried. I make no claims of being a USB expert, so to me this sounds like I’m then looking for some setting that comes to act as a DVC in the Hakai with this particular DAC connected?

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by OscarH » 2020-03-03 10:26

The plot thickens...

With a windows PC into the Gigaport it’s plenty loud. The Hakai into another USB DAC is also loud. The Hakai into the Gigaport isn’t.

Black magic territory...

Edit: the Hakai+Gigaport volume is sufficient for the vast majority of circumstances. But something strange is going on.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-03-03 13:39

OscarH wrote:
2020-03-03 10:26
the Hakai+Gigaport volume is sufficient for the vast majority of circumstances. But something strange is going on.
Oscar,

Try all your USB ports on your Hakai.
Everything is a remix: Copy, Transform, Combine.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by fatjulio » 2020-03-03 21:36

I know with a plain Debian install, alsamixer levels aren't at full for the gigaport device channels. See if you can check.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-03-03 23:34

fatjulio wrote:
2020-03-03 21:36
I know with a plain Debian install, alsamixer levels aren't at full for the gigaport device channels. See if you can check.

Oscar is using the Snakeoil OS.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by fatjulio » 2020-03-04 01:34

I know, but there might some equivalent device levels somewhere.

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Re: DAC discussions

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2020-03-04 02:15

fatjulio wrote:
2020-03-04 01:34
I know, but there might some equivalent device levels somewhere.
Within Snakeoil OS or Ubuntu?
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