Split from 'General discussions about HAKAI'

mrco99 wrote:I did miss out on one offered here locally that got snapped away right under my nose by a fellow 'Hakaier' :-)

Guilty as charged :)


A few questions regarding hardware for the HAKAI specialists:
# Streacom Nanopower 160 Watt - this PSU is also available in 120 and 150 Watt; is 160 really required?
# Streacom case - Casefan needed/mandatory? Or does it run cool enough to get away with no fans at all?
# ESI Gigaport+ - Max 96khz resolution, I guess it downsamples HR files 24/192 to 24/96? Is it audible? And why is this unit chosen? (I reckon there are better DACs out there?)

Sopper wrote:A few questions regarding hardware for the HAKAI specialists:
# Streacom Nanopower 160 Watt - this PSU is also available in 120 and 150 Watt; is 160 really required?

There are more than a dozen different "mini-PSU:s" (an internal plug in DC-DC converter driven by an external AC-DC adapter) that can power HAKAI. Nano160 is thoroughly tested and sounds great. It's possible there's an even better one out there - please do try to find one, but make sure you compare it with Nano160!

Sopper wrote:# Streacom case - Casefan needed/mandatory? Or does it run cool enough to get away with no fans at all?

No fan required.

Sopper wrote:# ESI Gigaport+ - Max 96khz resolution, I guess it downsamples HR files 24/192 to 24/96? Is it audible? And why is this unit chosen? (I reckon there are better DACs out there?)

There is no better DAC out there for this application. The reason is the isochronous USB transmission and the simple but optimal filter.

Sopper wrote:

mrco99 wrote:I did miss out on one offered here locally that got snapped away right under my nose by a fellow 'Hakaier' :-)

Guilty as charged :)


A few questions regarding hardware for the HAKAI specialists:
# Streacom Nanopower 160 Watt - this PSU is also available in 120 and 150 Watt; is 160 really required?
# Streacom case - Casefan needed/mandatory? Or does it run cool enough to get away with no fans at all?
# ESI Gigaport+ - Max 96khz resolution, I guess it downsamples HR files 24/192 to 24/96? Is it audible? And why is this unit chosen? (I reckon there are better DACs out there?)

How can you reckon there is a better dac out there Sopper have you heard ESI Gigaport ,or do you implicitly trust your calculations ?If you have found one thats better at the same price or cheaper I really do hope you post your findings....Cant promise you a finders fee though

lejonklou wrote:

Sopper wrote:# ESI Gigaport+ - Max 96khz resolution, I guess it downsamples HR files 24/192 to 24/96? Is it audible? And why is this unit chosen? (I reckon there are better DACs out there?)

There is no better DAC out there for this application. The reason is the isochronous USB transmission and the simple but optimal filter.

Alright, I’ll settle for this one then

Lego wrote: How can you reckon there is a better dac out there Sopper have you heard ESI Gigaport ,or do you implicitly trust your calculations ?If you have found one thats better at the same price or cheaper I really do hope you post your findings....Cant promise you a finders fee though

Haven’t heard many DACs, but there is a lot to choose from.

If Fredrik says it’s the best (so far), I’ll take his word for it.

Sopper wrote:

lejonklou wrote:

Sopper wrote:# ESI Gigaport+ - Max 96khz resolution, I guess it downsamples HR files 24/192 to 24/96? Is it audible? And why is this unit chosen? (I reckon there are better DACs out there?)

There is no better DAC out there for this application. The reason is the isochronous USB transmission and the simple but optimal filter.

Alright, I’ll settle for this one then

Lego wrote: How can you reckon there is a better dac out there Sopper have you heard ESI Gigaport ,or do you implicitly trust your calculations ?If you have found one thats better at the same price or cheaper I really do hope you post your findings....Cant promise you a finders fee though

Haven’t heard many DACs, but there is a lot to choose from.

If Fredrik says it’s the best (so far), I’ll take his word for it.

It's a leap of faith Sopper

lejonklou wrote: There is no better DAC out there for this application. The reason is the isochronous USB transmission and the simple but optimal filter.

Fredrik,

do you think isochronous is musically superior to asynchronous USB transmission?
Thanks

Matt

matthias wrote:

lejonklou wrote: There is no better DAC out there for this application. The reason is the isochronous USB transmission and the simple but optimal filter.

Fredrik,

do you think isochronous is musically superior to asynchronous USB transmission?
Thanks

Matt

Isochronous USB provides an much less processed connection between the digital source (in this case, the Gigabyte motherboard) and the DAC. This gives the motherboard more influence over the sound quality; if it's good, it will sound good. But if it's not very good it will not sound very good. And there is zero tolerance for dropouts in the datastream.

Asynchronous will buffer the signal from the digital source and try to isolate the DAC from the quality aspects of the datastream. In practice those qualities will however still leak through to the DAC and can be heard. The increased processing is not good for sound quality, unless you fine tune every component and its process for maximum musicality. Every step of the transmission and processing has a musical impact.

Travelling digital signals are very sensitive to processing, much more so than I first thought. To make digital signal processing musical is very difficult, so the simpler the processing is, the easier it becomes to get it right.

lejonklou wrote:

matthias wrote:

lejonklou wrote: There is no better DAC out there for this application. The reason is the isochronous USB transmission and the simple but optimal filter.

Fredrik,

do you think isochronous is musically superior to asynchronous USB transmission?
Thanks

Matt

Isochronous USB provides an much less processed connection between the digital source (in this case, the Gigabyte motherboard) and the DAC. This gives the motherboard more influence over the sound quality; if it's good, it will sound good. But if it's not very good it will not sound very good. And there is zero tolerance for dropouts in the datastream.

Asynchronous will buffer the signal from the digital source and try to isolate the DAC from the quality aspects of the datastream. In practice those qualities will however still leak through to the DAC and can be heard. The increased processing is not good for sound quality, unless you fine tune every component and its process for maximum musicality. Every step of the transmission and processing has a musical impact.

Travelling digital signals are very sensitive to processing, much more so than I first thought. To make digital signal processing musical is very difficult, so the simpler the processing is, the easier it becomes to get it right.

Thanks Fredrik thats good to know.

What changed your mind about the noise issue with USB dacs , and where do you see Hakai upgrades coming from in the future as it seems as far as hardware goes travelling to the past is better.

Lego wrote:

lejonklou wrote:Isochronous USB provides an much less processed connection between the digital source (in this case, the Gigabyte motherboard) and the DAC. This gives the motherboard more influence over the sound quality; if it's good, it will sound good. But if it's not very good it will not sound very good. And there is zero tolerance for dropouts in the datastream.

Asynchronous will buffer the signal from the digital source and try to isolate the DAC from the quality aspects of the datastream. In practice those qualities will however still leak through to the DAC and can be heard. The increased processing is not good for sound quality, unless you fine tune every component and its process for maximum musicality. Every step of the transmission and processing has a musical impact.

Travelling digital signals are very sensitive to processing, much more so than I first thought. To make digital signal processing musical is very difficult, so the simpler the processing is, the easier it becomes to get it right.

Thanks Fredrik thats good to know.

What changed your mind about the noise issue with USB dacs , and where do you see Hakai upgrades coming from in the future as it seems as far as hardware goes travelling to the past is better.

I'm not sure whether I changed my mind about USB. There are better ways of connecting the motherboard to the DAC than using the USB port, but this way is very simple and good enough. HAKAI is a DIY project.

Regarding HAKAI upgrades, I don't think that "past is better" is any definitive rule. I think it's rather a matter of unfortunate circumstances.
* It seems the data compressing controller IC's of current SSD's is the main reason why they sound bad - which may change in the future.
* There is a bunch of new low-power/heat/clock frequency motherboards that seem promising, but so far the ones I've tried have been a disappointment. This bad luck may change at any moment.
* Isochronous USB DAC's are definitely not in fashion right now, so there I'm unsure. But it's possible to build one from scratch, using a great DAC chip. Not that I'm doing so at the moment, I'm just saying it's possible.
* The power supply definitely doesn't follow the "past is better" rule. There might be better ones out there than Nano160.

lejonklou wrote:There are better ways of connecting the motherboard to the DAC than using the USB port, but this way is very simple and good enough.

Fredrik,
what do you have in mind, maybe Thunderbolt like some professional DACs?
Thanks

Matt

matthias wrote:

lejonklou wrote:There are better ways of connecting the motherboard to the DAC than using the USB port, but this way is very simple and good enough.

Fredrik,
what do you have in mind, maybe Thunderbolt like some professional DACs?
Thanks

Matt

I'd pick I2S if I could only choose one.

I don't really know anything about Thunderbolt. The USB-C connector that it's now using seems promising (I mean in general, not specifically for audio).

But there is a big difference between speculation and what actually sounds best, in practice!

While I know a bit about the different connection methods, I'm not conversant with the audio qualities each one has. One interface that I think Linn introduced to streamers is HDMI and it seems to be gaining popularity with DAC manufacturers. I'm told it is more robust than USB having been designed to handle much more data. But I think one of the main reasons it is catching on is it allows a DAC to decode SACDs which can't be done through other connections. Of course, it also allows the decoding of movie soundtracks, the main reason Linn appears to have implemented it. That said I have never been thrilled with HDMI with its content protection hardware and the constant changes to the specs, hardware and cabling needed.

I have heard I2S is good but haven't seen it used a lot. Interestingly it looks like HDMI cabling is one of the more common ways to hook it up although Etnernet cables are also apparently used.

lejonklou wrote: I don't really know anything about Thunderbolt.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/foru ... ent-861705

Matt

matthias wrote:

lejonklou wrote: I don't really know anything about Thunderbolt.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/foru ... ent-861705

Matt

Thanks matthias!

If I'm reading correctly USB audio data is transferred in 'Isochronous' mode is all USB DACs. Synchronization mode is a different story for which you have different flavors though:

https://www.edn.com/design/consumer/437 ... -USB-Audio

http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/USB.html

vicdiaz wrote:If I'm reading correctly USB audio data is transferred in 'Isochronous' mode is all USB DACs. Synchronization mode is a different story for which you have different flavors though:

https://www.edn.com/design/consumer/437 ... -USB-Audio

http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/USB.html

Not sure what you mean, Vic.

Gigaport HD+ operates in what they call USB adaptive mode. The motherboard sets the pace of conversion.

Hi All,

This is probably the wrong place to post this question but I couldn’t find anywhere suitable, probably because it’s not the smartest question.

In my excitement to build a ‘Hakai’, I realised that I might need a preamp, a slight oversight :(. My current setup is: LP12 (Gaia), KDSM, Tundra 2 and 242’s so I’ve not needed a pre-amp up to now.

Do I need a pre-amp, I assume this is a yes.

Thanks,

William

KDSM is/can function as preamplifier
You will need RCA to XLR cables though

Ok, thanks.

I’ve got RCA to XLR cables so I now I’m just waiting on the power supply.

Best regards,

William

I have decided to give up on the ESI dac for now.
It just won’t work like i would like with Volumio, Bubbleupnp server and Kazoo combination.
The RME dac works flawlessly, no matter what Volumio version, mpd version, upmpdcli version...

Since Debian Stretch in combination with MPD and Upmpdcli, the ESI is working perfectly, but makes Linux downsample to 16/44. Since I have Qobuz Sublime+ I’d like to find a dac capable of HR files.

I would really like to try other DACs and maybe you can help me to find candidates.

The DACs I like to try and test must have (all) the following specifications:
- The dac runs in adaptive isonchronous mode
- The dac is capable to play 24/96 or 24/192
- The dac has stereo output (and not 8 outputs like the ESI)
- The dac is affordable... ESI gigaport HD+ price point (+/- €160)
- The dac is not bad measured by Amirm (audiosciencereview.com)

Sopper wrote: ↑2018-12-28 20:37 Since Debian Stretch in combination with MPD and Upmpdcli, the ESI is working perfectly, but makes Linux downsample to 16/44. Since I have Qobuz Sublime+ I’d like to find a dac capable of HR files.

I would really like to try other DACs and maybe you can help me to find candidates.

The DACs I like to try and test must have (all) the following specifications:
- The dac runs in adaptive isonchronous mode
- The dac is capable to play 24/96 or 24/192
- The dac has stereo output (and not 8 outputs like the ESI)
- The dac is affordable... ESI gigaport HD+ price point (+/- €160)
- The dac is not bad measured by Amirm (audiosciencereview.com)

That's all very well Sopper but if you really want to improve the Hakai you should be out in the field buying and testing different motherboards rather than tinkering with the least important part of the Hakai chain,but then if tinkering for tinkering sake is your bag... or you could just buy all the dacs for ~£160 and listen to them and let us know

Is there merit in an alternative approach of asking ESI to have their DACs added to the Linux kernel?

I want to enjoy the HAKAI in HR and that’s why I am searching for a DAC.

FairPlayMotty wrote: ↑2018-12-31 16:29 Is there merit in an alternative approach of asking ESI to have their DACs added to the Linux kernel?

I asked them already and they are not putting any effort in Linux