Snakeoil OS

A DIY digital music streamer with exceptional performance

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agent_kith
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-13 03:06

markiteight wrote:
2019-03-12 21:35
Welcome to the rabbit hole, Agent Kith!
It's my pleasure. Thanks guys :)
markiteight wrote:
2019-03-12 21:35
Thank you. That guide was very useful for helping me better understand what LVM is and what it does, but when it comes to describing how to implement LVM it still left me in a state of, "but how do I...".
I came across this: https://opensource.com/business/16/9/li ... -guide-lvm with a much more basic step-by-step guide that I can understand well enough to either accomplish what I want or make things be very, very broken. ;-)
As long as you have backups, things will be fine. LVM is pretty flexible, and it does makes things easier. To be honest I don't know the impact of SQ this will bring. The goal of Snakeoil is to provide the audiophile the means to do exactly what they want. To customise their sounds the way they want it to be.

For my case I split up my network into VLANs, my NAS and my music player are on one VLAN, while everything else are on other VLANs. In order for the devices to intercommunicate (different VLAN are on a different subnet),I have setup a relatively fast router to direct traffic between these VLANs. The idea of this is the network is my rendering PC will only see a small subset of traffic on this network. If I include everything on the same network (about 60+ devices), the rendering PC will see a lot more traffic.

This is like connecting a cable directly between my NAS and render PC. But not really. In a sense the render PC only sees the NAS, but the NAS can see a lot more (as machines on other VLANs can connect to it).

markiteight wrote:
2019-03-12 21:35
Hmmm...that's not how it's working for me. Once a drive is mounted, it cannot be unmounted. I click "Add Mount Point" and it expands the "Mount Points Configuration" fields, including the trash can. Clicking the trash can simply removes that instance of Mount Point Configuration. Filling in the fields, clicking "trash" and then clicking save, as per the instructions, doesn't do anything either.
There should be a red trash can that you can click to remove the mounts. Then click on "Add" to setup a new one. U3 might have broken something as I just enabled folks to create more than 1 mounts. Possibly introduced a bug with this change. I'd look into this and see if I can fix it. Or overhaul the whole thing to make it more intuitive.
markiteight wrote:
2019-03-12 21:35
Linn Kazoo. I tried Linn Kinsky (an older control point that was replaced by Kazoo in 2014-ish) as well with the same results.

It gets weirder. I discovered this new plot thickener this morning. I ripped my personal CD collection to AIFF many years ago and it appears these are the tracks that exhibit this problem. Anything in my collection that isn't AIFF, which includes AAC downloads from iTunes and MP3 files that accumulate over the years, play fine. This is consistent with Kazoo and Kinsky.
Ah, AIFF. This should be a software problem, but can't really be fixed easily.

If memory serves AIFF is "reverse engineered" in Linux, so support for that will spotty. Also, AIFF can be decoded by libasound (or libsound?) or libavcodec. Pretty sure MPD have support for both, but I'm not entirely sure which library MPD will pick as the decoder.

You may need to turn on resampling to get this working. <- This requires a manual modification though as the GUI for doing this isn't coded into the WebApp yet....
markiteight wrote:
2019-03-12 21:35
I cannot fully express how much I appreciate your help. It's pretty awesome having such thorough support direct from the source!
Again the pleasure is all mine. This whole project kind of started as a joke over some light banter. Kind of a bet that surely nobody would download and use something called Snakeoil. But some people did, and that's the most awesome thing.

Truth be told the Internet has made audiophile a very toxic subject. People are so dead set against their ideals and am happy to "fight to the death" over issues that really isn't life or death. Every snake oil revision has a project name - Blind Testing, Gear Isolation, etc. Basically audiophile click bait topics. Hopefully via SEO every audiophile will search for these clickbaits and end up on the Snakeoil website.

Maybe a small percentage of these visitors will get curious enough to download and try this software. And hopefully they can finally realise - the most important element in an audio setup is really him or herself.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-13 03:29

David Neel wrote:
2019-03-12 16:44
Set at 100%.

But I notice the Audio State box at the top of that page states that USB Audio "device is closed", despite being In Use lower down the page.
I'd see if I can rephrase that in the future.

Audio State at the top is showing you the current status of the audio device. i.e. whether it's currently active or not, and if it's active, what's the sample, and bit rate. MPD will only open the audio device when you're playing music. So when it's not playing music, you'd see "device is closed". If you have multiple audio devices, and some are playing music, and some aren't, the ones playing music will show the sample/bit rates, and the ones not will say closed.

As for the "In use" lower down, that means you have configured that as a playback device. So when a device is "in use", it means there is an entry in the ALSA Configuration panel to it's right.

You can read more here: https://www.snakeoil-os.net/Manual/conf ... ic-players
David Neel wrote: I've now tried enabling minimserver, both with and without upmpdcli. This enables both BubbleDS and Kazoo to see the music files, but not to play them.
I've tried MPD - the webapp sees the music but can't play it. LMS is the same.
So I'm drawing a blank here.
That's an oversight on my part.

Right now when you setup minimserver, it turns your Snakeoil PC into a media server. You need a second PC to act as a media renderer to play music.

There is no reason why a single machine can't do both. Unfortunately the WebApp doesn't support running minimserver, upmpdcli and MPD all at once. I'd see if I can tweak that GUI to do more.

But for now, to do what you want, from the WebGUI, set the player to upmpdcli+mpd, and then SSH into the computer, and turn on the minimserver service manually. I think the command should be:

Code: Select all

sudo systemctl enable minimserver
Restart the machine and there you go.

Edit: For now, you can just keep things simple, and use MPD. i.e.:

1. Select MPD as your player
2. configure the ALSA device
3. Copy your files over to the Snakeoil PC
3. Start myMPD client the link is available in the players tab (Tip: You can load this page as a full screen app on the mobile or tablet)
4. Click on the menu and select update database
5. Play some tunes.

See how that goes. Once you got that working, we can focus on the DLNA part next.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by David Neel » 2019-03-13 12:41

Thanks, Agent Kith!

I've already got a perfectly good dedicated music server (Win7 and Asset UPnP). I only put a music SSD into the Snakeoil system because I couldn't get Snakeoil (as a player/renderer) to see the music server. A single box renderer/server is NOT my destination.

So the question becomes: what do I need to do to configure Snakeoil to see my music server?

PS: I tried to use SSH to manually start minimserver, but the suggested command didn't work. As stated, I'm not that bothered, as the one-box idea was to just get Snakeoil working. From trials several years ago, I rated Asset more musical than minimserver.
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by Ron The Mon » 2019-03-14 00:54

agent_kith wrote:
2019-03-13 03:06
...Hopefully... every audiophile will search for these click-baits and end up on the Snakeoil website.

Maybe a small percentage of these visitors will get curious enough to download and try this software. And hopefully they can finally realise - the most important element in an audio setup is really him or herself.
agent-kith,
Are you are stating unambiguously that ideal equipment set-up, including software, is extremely important and the key to a great sounding hi-fi? If so, you will find almost all posters on this Forum in agreement. Being a software designer you have probably observed that improvements closer to the source result in far larger improvements than an improvement in an amplifier or speaker.

If so, I suggest you learn about "tune-dem" comparisons on this forum for the sake of having a reference. It appears you have an open mind, intelligence, skepticism for the hi-fi industry, humor, and a goal of improving hi-fis world-wide. You may be exactly what Fredrik Lejonklou has been searching for in a software designer. Actually the "humor" part is what I like and is not a Fredrik trademark. What Fredrik can learn from you is routing searches to this Forum as that's a great idea.

Most specific LP12 searches direct to this Forum as a result from using the right words. I have noticed this recently as Linns' own Forum is gone.

Using hi-fi geek terms and anti-terms is a great idea to draw visitors.

If I get a chance this weekend I may try Snakeoil. Do you have any support or recommendations for listening to Spotify in higher quality?

Ron The Mon

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-14 02:40

David Neel wrote:
2019-03-13 12:41
Thanks, Agent Kith!

I've already got a perfectly good dedicated music server (Win7 and Asset UPnP). I only put a music SSD into the Snakeoil system because I couldn't get Snakeoil (as a player/renderer) to see the music server. A single box renderer/server is NOT my destination.
That'd be a good setup. So your machine running Asset will be the DLNA server. So, to setup your Snakeoil PC as a DLNA renderer:
  1. Install upmpdcli on the snakeoil PC (either via SSH or via the Snakeoil WebApp)
  2. Go to the Snakeoil WebApp
  3. Select upmpdcli+mpd
  4. Click on start Player(s)
And that's it. You use a DLNA controller, which will find the music from your DLNA server (Win7+Asset), and queue it to your DLNA renderer (Snakeoil+Updmpcli+mpd). Hope this make sense?
David Neel wrote:
2019-03-13 12:41
PS: I tried to use SSH to manually start minimserver, but the suggested command didn't work. As stated, I'm not that bothered, as the one-box idea was to just get Snakeoil working. From trials several years ago, I rated Asset more musical than minimserver.
Since you already have a server, you can skip the step of installing minimserver.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-14 03:33

Ron The Mon wrote:
2019-03-14 00:54
Are you are stating unambiguously that ideal equipment set-up, including software, is extremely important and the key to a great sounding hi-fi? If so, you will find almost all posters on this Forum in agreement.
My philosophy towards hifi is everybody is his own man. i.e. Everybody has their own vision of "ideal". There is no "one-size-fit-all" system, and thus no "universal solution".

The key to a great sounding hi-fi is the audiophile himself. Ultimately this is the person who decides what component to buy, and to keep.

If the audiophile is well grounded, it wouldn't cost much to have a good sound system.

This is why Snakeoil may confusing to some. This is an audiophile OS that is designed to give audiophiles the power of choice. There are a lot of tweaks in there that can bring your system to a higher level, or a lower one :P.

I have heard snakeoil based systems that sound utterly amazing, and also systems that are somewhat ordinary.
Ron The Mon wrote:
2019-03-14 00:54
Being a software designer you have probably observed that improvements closer to the source result in far larger improvements than an improvement in an amplifier or speaker.
For me yes, this is true. But it's still YMMV. I have to resist making changes to my system because it'd upset my references. I can't change components unless I absolutely have to. It's hard to keep Snakeoil consistent if components change frequently.

Over the past 10 years, I think I have only changed the DAC, and a few cables, everything else hasn't changed. The downside to my approach is while I am always positive I'm improvement my sytstem, the progress is pretty slow.

Ron The Mon wrote:
2019-03-14 00:54
If so, I suggest you learn about "tune-dem" comparisons on this forum for the sake of having a reference. It appears you have an open mind, intelligence, skepticism for the hi-fi industry, humor, and a goal of improving hi-fis world-wide. You may be exactly what Fredrik Lejonklou has been searching for in a software designer. Actually the "humor" part is what I like and is not a Fredrik trademark. What Fredrik can learn from you is routing searches to this Forum as that's a great idea.

Most specific LP12 searches direct to this Forum as a result from using the right words. I have noticed this recently as Linns' own Forum is gone.

Using hi-fi geek terms and anti-terms is a great idea to draw visitors.
Depends on the forum software. A URL with meaning words (instead of numbers) will be a good start. That'd go higher in the google rankings.
Ron The Mon wrote:
2019-03-14 00:54
If I get a chance this weekend I may try Snakeoil. Do you have any support or recommendations for listening to Spotify in higher quality?
There's Spotify Connect (there's currently a install bug that'd be fixed in U4). And I believe LMS may support Spotify as well. I'd say start with Spotify Connect, and once you got that at a basis, start tweaking and see how much further you can push the sound.

Snakeoil slogans: "Music, your way", and "Designed by Us, Defined by You". At the end of the day, you guys call the shots. Think of Snakeoil as a facilitator. If you find something that you think sounds better. I'd add 'em into Snakeoil.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-14 22:28

This is why Snakeoil may confusing to some. This is an audiophile OS that is designed to give audiophiles the power of choice. There are a lot of tweaks in there that can bring your system to a higher level, or a lower one :P.
Agent Kith,

I know a lot of guys on the parallel forum down under (https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/ ... nt-1356167) use the Process Priority part of the software to tweak it. Is there a user guide to maximising that part of the software?

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by agent_kith » 2019-03-15 00:57

FairPlayMotty wrote:
2019-03-14 22:28
I know a lot of guys on the parallel forum down under (https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/ ... nt-1356167) use the Process Priority part of the software to tweak it. Is there a user guide to maximising that part of the software?
Play some music, then in the WebApp, go to the "Systems" section, and click on "Top". Note down name of the processes that dominate the few lines at the top.

Next step the music, and redo the top observations. Now make a second list of dominate processes (there should be a lot few changes now).

Now you have the two lists, create your process prorities giving 99 to the first list, and say 90 for the second. Depending on your CPU speed, you can't have too many processes running in RealTime mode all the time so don't go overboard with this. Just pick on the dorminant ones will do.

Also, probably a good idea to try CPUSet. This one is special :). Finally, test which timing mechanism is better for you - HPET or TSC.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by David Neel » 2019-03-15 01:39

agent_kith wrote:
2019-03-14 02:40

[*] Install upmpdcli on the snakeoil PC (either via SSH or via the Snakeoil WebApp)
[*] Go to the Snakeoil WebApp
[*] Select upmpdcli+mpd
[*] Click on start Player(s)
[/list]
Okay, haven't had much time today, but:

1. Is this a separate step? I thought upmpdcli was included in Snakeoil?
3. I can select upmpdcli OR mpd, but not both

As a separate item, my DNLA issue may be down to not understanding the necessary syntax. My music server is called LSNAS. Asset is on the C: drive which also holds Win7 and other software. All music files are in multiple folders on the M: drive. What should be the syntax for mounting to Snakeoil?

Thanks
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-03-15 02:54

David Neel wrote:
2019-03-15 01:39
As a separate item, my DNLA issue may be down to not understanding the necessary syntax. My music server is called LSNAS. Asset is on the C: drive which also holds Win7 and other software. All music files are in multiple folders on the M: drive. What should be the syntax for mounting to Snakeoil?

Thanks
You should not need to mount your music drive/folders from your NAS on your player - doing so would bypass Asset. Asset registers itself as a music server on the network. The control point finds Asset and understands the music library that it makes available. The control point also finds the player(s) on the network - this is the upmpdcli renderer & MPD. The music that you chose in the control point is sent to the player and is accessed via Asset; not directly from the M: drive by the player, so you don't need to mount the NAS drives in SnakeOil on the player.

Once you have upmpdcli & MPD enabled in SnakeOil then, In your control point of choice, you should be able to select Asset & your player, and whatever music you choose is what should play through your SnakeOil player and Gigaport DAC.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by markiteight » 2019-03-15 03:16

David Neel wrote:
2019-03-15 01:39
1. Is this a separate step? I thought upmpdcli was included in Snakeoil?
The facility to install Upmpdcli from within the Snakeoil GUI is available in the unlocked version. Under "Snakeoil" it will appear, along with Minimserver, in the "Music Software" section. Make sure the machine is connected to the interwebs, click the box next to upmpdcli, click save, and you're done.

If you don't have the unlocked version it should still be possible to SSH into your Snakeoil machine and install it via the command line. That, however, is beyond me.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-15 03:33

Play some music, then in the WebApp, go to the "Systems" section, and click on "Top". Note down name of the processes that dominate the few lines at the top.

Next step the music, and redo the top observations. Now make a second list of dominate processes (there should be a lot few changes now).

Now you have the two lists, create your process prorities giving 99 to the first list, and say 90 for the second. Depending on your CPU speed, you can't have too many processes running in RealTime mode all the time so don't go overboard with this. Just pick on the dorminant ones will do.

Also, probably a good idea to try CPUSet. This one is special :). Finally, test which timing mechanism is better for you - HPET or TSC.
Many thanks agent Kith!

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by markiteight » 2019-03-15 03:34

agent_kith wrote:
2019-03-13 03:06
There should be a red trash can that you can click to remove the mounts. Then click on "Add" to setup a new one. U3 might have broken something as I just enabled folks to create more than 1 mounts. Possibly introduced a bug with this change. I'd look into this and see if I can fix it. Or overhaul the whole thing to make it more intuitive.

This is what Music Library looks like on my NAS:
Image

No trash can is present unless I click on "Add Mount Point". Is there something missing?
agent_kith wrote:
2019-03-13 03:06
Ah, AIFF. This should be a software problem, but can't really be fixed easily.

If memory serves AIFF is "reverse engineered" in Linux, so support for that will spotty. Also, AIFF can be decoded by libasound (or libsound?) or libavcodec. Pretty sure MPD have support for both, but I'm not entirely sure which library MPD will pick as the decoder.

You may need to turn on resampling to get this working. <- This requires a manual modification though as the GUI for doing this isn't coded into the WebApp yet....
It sound like I might be better off converting to FLAC. I'm curious to try converting a couple albums and see if it solves the problem. Do you have any suggestions on software I should consider that'll do the job? There are lots of options.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-15 03:51

On the Windows side I use Foobar and dbPoweramp for file conversion. The latter is my tool of choice.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by David Neel » 2019-03-15 13:42

tokenbrit wrote:
2019-03-15 02:54

You should not need to mount your music drive/folders from your NAS on your player - doing so would bypass Asset. Asset registers itself as a music server on the network. The control point finds Asset and understands the music library that it makes available. The control point also finds the player(s) on the network - this is the upmpdcli renderer & MPD. The music that you chose in the control point is sent to the player and is accessed via Asset; not directly from the M: drive by the player, so you don't need to mount the NAS drives in SnakeOil on the player.

Once you have upmpdcli & MPD enabled in SnakeOil then, In your control point of choice, you should be able to select Asset & your player, and whatever music you choose is what should play through your SnakeOil player and Gigaport DAC.
Thanks! Giving up trying to mount the files is a relief. Control points BubbleDs and Kazoo find Asset without a problem.

I can't see how to get both upmpdcli AND MPD enabled. They are mutually exclusive choices as Server, and only upmpdcli is listed under Client. When selected, it is not recognised by the control point.
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by David Neel » 2019-03-15 13:45

markiteight wrote:
2019-03-15 03:16

The facility to install Upmpdcli from within the Snakeoil GUI is available in the unlocked version. Under "Snakeoil" it will appear, along with Minimserver, in the "Music Software" section. Make sure the machine is connected to the interwebs, click the box next to upmpdcli, click save, and you're done.

If you don't have the unlocked version it should still be possible to SSH into your Snakeoil machine and install it via the command line. That, however, is beyond me.
I've got the unlocked version with upmpdcli installed. Yes, I can use putty for SSH, but I have no clue what to do when I'm in!
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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-03-15 15:26

David Neel wrote:
2019-03-15 13:42
I can't see how to get both upmpdcli AND MPD enabled. They are mutually exclusive choices as Server, and only upmpdcli is listed under Client. When selected, it is not recognised by the control point.
Your LSNAS is the server; your player is the client so don't worry about upmpdcli and MPD being mutually exclusive choices as Server. As a player you are using MPD client; upmpdcli then provides an interface between your control point and MPD (client). From 'Motty's screenshots there is a Music Player tab in Snake oil - that's where you should enable upmpdcli and MPD. Additionally, I'd make sure MPD is unchecked under the Server tab along with everything else there if you want Snake oil to be a client/player only. If Bubble still doesn't recognise/find 'UpMpD', which is what mine registers itself as on the network, at that point we'd have to do a bit more digging or defer to the special Agent in charge.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-15 23:49

Yes, if it's a player only go upmpdcli in the player options, it gives you MPDv21.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by fatjulio » 2019-03-16 00:09

I've just got Snakeoil installed on my Hakai as a renderer, and it's working. I haven't got the activated version, so I installed upmpdcli manually via SSH. The weird thing to do to get it going is the player selection. I selected the server to be on, with MPD 20, or 21 if you have the latest firmware. So no client. It's working with Kazoo from my NAS. MPD 21 sounds better than 20 here.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by fatjulio » 2019-03-16 01:21

Initial listening impressions, I like the plain Debian Stretch install better. Richer sounding and more musical.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-16 09:03

Initial listening impressions, I like the plain Debian Stretch install better. Richer sounding and more musical.
I'd be interested to hear what you think after making use of the CPU core and Process Priority tweaks. This is giving us much more than a plain Debian Stretch (and MPDv21) install.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-03-16 12:36

FairPlayMotty wrote:
2019-03-16 09:03
.. making use of the CPU core and Process Priority tweaks. This is giving us much more than a plain Debian Stretch (and MPDv21) install.
Yes & no - certainly not part of a 'plain Stretch install' but you can do that in Debian. SnakeOil makes it much easier and more accessible.

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-16 13:16

Yes & no - certainly not part of a 'plain Stretch install' but you can do that in Debian. SnakeOil makes it much easier and more accessible.
And a little like re-inventing the wheel :)

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by tokenbrit » 2019-03-16 17:47

" .. what about this wheel thingy? It sounds a terribly interesting project.”
“Ah,” said the marketing girl, “well, we’re having a little difficulty there.”
“Difficulty?” exclaimed Ford. “Difficulty? What do you mean, difficulty? It’s the single simplest machine in the entire Universe!”
The marketing girl soured him with a look “All right, Mr. Wiseguy,” she said, “you’re so clever, you tell us what colour it should be."
;)

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Re: Snakeoil OS

Post by FairPlayMotty » 2019-03-16 18:04

Lmao

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