remote volume control in kikkin via Chorus/Plugplayer etc.

fbee · Post by **fbee** » 2011-06-25 18:41

Hello there,

I´m new to this forumn and see a lot of Linnies around here. Nice.

Here´s my first topic:

After my Linn ADS I´m still using passive attenuation to feed an active XO+ poweramp. The attenuation results in digital volume levels to be mostly between 60 and 90. Short signal path, not bad at all

If I´d go for a preamp like kikkin, I´d miss the very comfortable volume selection and standby switching directly out of the ChorusApp or PlugplayerApp. I don´want to use a second remote just for volume control.

So, is there any chance to see a kikkin with volume control via Chorus/PlugPlayer/? Network-modules, to read the volume commands , wouldn´t be rocket science....

Cheers, Frank

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 2011-06-25 19:02

You can use the ADS remote to controls the Kikkin.

Erik

fbee · Post by **fbee** » 2011-06-26 08:23

Thanks,
but the Linn RC would be the second RC, that I want to avoid.
Frank

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-06-28 15:48

Hi Frank and welcome here!

Kikkin can't be controlled by Chorus/Plugplayer etc and there are currently no plans to incorporate that feature. The main reason is that an integrated RS232 interface, which would be the best solution, is bad news for the sound quality of Kikkin. There are several reasons for this, the main one being that the RS232 circuitry disturbs the quiet, low power supply of Kikkin, where the digital parts of Kikkin go to sleep when no command is being received. An RS232 circuit won't do that and would preferably need to be powered independently.

A second reason is that the connection between a DS and preamp in itself degrades sound quality, due to a ground loop being created. This is true also with Linn preamps; it sounds better without this connection and if you compare in a well installed system it becomes hard to go back to using the RS232, although I agree it's convenient.

Apart from an integrated RS232 connection, there are some other ways of making Kikkin respond to a volume command from a control point (Chorus/Plugplayer etc). The problem is that these potentially "clean" ways are one way only - meaning that Kikkin will receive a volume command by a small unit sending IR, but Kikkin won't be able to report back its setting to the control point. This would most likely lead to occasional problems where the volume on the control point does no longer match the volume that Kikkin is in. I've been thinking of a clever way to overcome this, but haven't come up with anything bullet proof so far. If anyone has a bright idea that doesn't include an RS232 link to the DS player, I'm all ears!

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2011-06-29 00:46

lejonklou wrote: Apart from an integrated RS232 connection, there are some other ways of making Kikkin respond to a volume command from a control point (Chorus/Plugplayer etc). The problem is that these potentially "clean" ways are one way only - meaning that Kikkin will receive a volume command by a small unit sending IR, but Kikkin won't be able to report back its setting to the control point. This would most likely lead to occasional problems where the volume on the control point does no longer match the volume that Kikkin is in. I've been thinking of a clever way to overcome this, but haven't come up with anything bullet proof so far. If anyone has a bright idea that doesn't include an RS232 link to the DS player, I'm all ears!

Well, the new AK has a direct network interface, so you might want to investigate that option as a way or providing volume control from CPs. I'm not suggesting that you add network hardware to the Kikkin, but just as a way to avoid the RS232 DS connection.

A related ideas is around the feedback loop to CPs. Since the Kikkin uses a single LED in different colours to show the volume, you could create a small network linked unit which sits in front of the Kikkin and converts volume +/- signals into IR emissions to change the Kikkin volume. It could also have a colour sensor that reports back the volume to the nearest 10dB, validating when major changes arise.

Just a thought...

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-06-29 12:06

rowlandhills wrote:Well, the new AK has a direct network interface, so you might want to investigate that option as a way or providing volume control from CPs.

Good idea, thanks! I have noticed the many new integrated circuits that provide a network interface with minimal board space requirements. But I haven't checked any of them in detail. Could be the right way to go about it in the future.

rowlandhills wrote:...you could create a small network linked unit which sits in front of the Kikkin and converts volume +/- signals into IR emissions to change the Kikkin volume. It could also have a colour sensor that reports back the volume to the nearest 10dB, validating when major changes arise.

This idea is a bit awkward technically, but would be compatible with Kikkin and possibly other preamps that use RC5 and volume steps of 1 dB (despite the lack of feedback). The unit would need to know the startup volume of the preamp and then keep a theoretical track of the volume setting and send individual + and - commands until it matches the setting chosen on the control point.

In the various control point programs, which volume setting do they have when they're started?

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2011-06-29 13:56

Starting volume is controlled though Konfig in my setup.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2011-06-29 15:38

lejonklou wrote: The unit would need to know the startup volume of the preamp and then keep a theoretical track of the volume setting and send individual + and - commands until it matches the setting chosen on the control point.

I think the majority of the customers going to be just fine with just + and - commands.
I also think the typical Lejonklou customer appreciate that the main priority is performance, not features.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-06-30 12:10

Music Lover wrote:I think the majority of the customers going to be just fine with just + and - commands.

Do you mean using an infrared remote?

I also think the typical Lejonklou customer appreciate that the main priority is performance, not features.

I can assure you that will not change, even if a few features are added!

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2011-06-30 12:48

lejonklou wrote:
Music Lover wrote:I think the majority of the customers going to be just fine with just + and - commands.
Do you mean using an infrared remote?

I also think the typical Lejonklou customer appreciate that the main priority is performance, not features.
I can assure you that will not change, even if a few features are added!

1/ No, this was a discussion regarding SW applications correct? But sure, it's even more convenient using a remote.

2/ Good, but my advice is to be careful even be CLOSE joining a feature race. Such a race can only be lost for a company focusing on performance as the attention is removed from YOUR MAIN competitive advantage (performance) to features where you not going to have a chance anyway to compete with the big Asian companies.

Also - the risk that the down to earth, low key Lejonklou approach (great performance/price ratio with focus on performance not features) is compromised shouldn't be left without serious consideration.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-06-30 16:15

Thanks for the advice, ML!

Regarding control point programs, last time I checked not all programs featured +/- volume buttons. Some just had a slider. Anyone who can bring me up to date with the latest versions regarding this?

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2011-06-30 18:45

lejonklou wrote:Some just had a slider.

Working with applications that interacts you quickly learn avoiding designs that create unnecessary sync issues.
Apart from that, sliders are also difficult to operate.

sommerfee · Post by **sommerfee** » 2011-06-30 19:38

lejonklou wrote:Regarding control point programs, last time I checked not all programs featured +/- volume buttons. Some just had a slider. Anyone who can bring me up to date with the latest versions regarding this?

Auskerry, Bute, and Cara had functions to get and set the current volume only. So it does not matter if the Control Point has a slider or +/- buttons, they need to remember the current setting for being able to increase or decrease the volume, e.g. change from 30 to 31. (Beside that one can get or set the volume limit.) See:

http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/D ... ampService

Davaar has much more functions, beside the stuff that existed for prior compatibility islands, Linn has added functions to increase or decrease the volume, and some more functions regarding the volume stuff as well. See:

http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/D ... umeService

Since most Control Points were written for Cara and adapted to Davaar, I assume that most Control Points will not use the new Davaar volume functions, but only the ones which already existed in Cara (but have changed names of service and/or functions).

Implementing the volume stuff into an own device is a lot of work to do: One need a full UPnP stack since the device must answer to SSDP requests (for searching the device), the volume service must be subscribable (using GENA) the device need to implement the Info service as well (for getting the Room and Device name), and so on.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-07-02 15:54

ML: I'm afraid I don't understand what you're point is. Can you elaborate? Are you saying that you find controlling the volume through the DS control point unnecessary? I do understand you don't want such a feature to limit the sound performance, and with that I agree.

Axel: Thank you! I have never worked with UPnP so your information is valuable. Implementing the RS232 interface is a lot simpler! I might consider a tiny standalone box that converts those volume commands to IR instead.

I do, however, have to check that such a unit doesn't decrease the sound performance of the DS player it's connected to. Although Linn and some retailers like us to believe that the DS players are really insensitive to all kinds of disturbances (same story as with new high performing speakers always being "easy to position", when usually the opposite is true), I find that it's the other way around: The better the DS player is, the more easily you can hear the effect of the support, the power cord, the interconnects etc.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2011-07-02 18:20

Just a note on the volume sliders. On ChorusDS it appears you only have a volume slider but clicking on the loud speaker icon at the right side of the slider bar raises the volume one notch and clicking the quiet speaker at the left side lowers the volume one notch. These are the + and - buttons. I believe some other designs work the same way.