kikkin phase invert on actives

bassato · Post by **bassato** » 2011-01-02 09:58

good morning

being a new member here, it is nice to find so many well-known names from over there at the linn forum :D hello to all...

i'm showing some interest in this minimal solution ds-kikkin-actives, since my belief is that there should be an preamp inbetween - have an acoustic research ls-3 running at the moment and the music is definitely benefitting from this!!

then i read about kikkin changing the signal phase and the recommendation to change red/black on the speaker cables. same thing for actives, just change ground and signal in the nf-cables on one side? or leave it just the way it is? what is the phase invert all about: chassis are not pushing forward on signal but going back??

tried to search forum for this question and didn't find an answer - maybe i overlooked so sorry if this topic has been covered already...

manfred

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2011-01-02 23:59

Hi Manfred. Nice to see you over here :) Welcome!

Yes, Kikkin is reverse phase same as old Linn Kairn. This is opposite to current Linn pre-amps like AK and KK, if that helps.

To reverse phase, I just swap the speaker cable connections at rear of speaker, so red to black and visa versa. Back when I was running aktiv there were simply more speaker connections to change round. Don't know what an nf-cable is that you refer to.

Out of phase sounds less musical and a bit shut-in up the top end and weak overall - as best as I recall.

Can't well descibe the science but think when out of phase that the speaker woofer is being pulled in when it should be pushing outwards and visa versa. Surprised it works at all personally :mrgreen:

Short of a rather more expensive Klimax Kontrol/1 (which I own), then my original version Kikkin is very tough to beat. It's certainly outstanding value. Only heard Kikkin2 once when deming a Urika and wasn't able to compare to the original I still own. It's a superb option for single-source listeners like ourselves and enables you to divert funds elsewhere without droping pre-amp quality, in fact, quite the opposite.

bassato · Post by **bassato** » 2011-01-03 07:12

charlie

tx for your answer - good to hear about the sonic advantages of kikkin, exactly this kind of info i was looking for additionally.

sorry about the term nf-cable, thought it was the "international" term for a cinch or xlr interconnect. I'm having cinch on the source side at the moment and xlr on the actives. so there is still the question: crossing the cable inside the cinch-connection o on the xlr side? sounds strange....?!?

manfred

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-01-03 11:38

Hi manfred and welcome to the forum!

If your active speakers have a balanced input, it's easy to get the signal phase correct.

Kikkin has an unbalanced output (phono connectors). The two cables from Kikkin to active speakers therefore need to be phono to XLR. Inside the XLR, the signal from Kikkin should go to - (cold). Ground from Kikkin should be connected to both + (hot) and ground.

Irri · Post by **Irri** » 2011-05-13 15:39

So does this mean the Kikkin is putting my system (Linn DS/Amp/Speakers) in reverse phase?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-05-13 15:44

Hi Irri and welcome here!

Kikkin always inverts absolute phase and therefore the phase should be corrected between power amps and speakers. Just like in the old days with Linn Kairn and LK1.

When using aktiv speakers with built in power amps, it can be difficult to correct the phase. In my opinion, this is a very minor drawback, however. Absolute phase is audible, but not a crucial parameter.

Irri · Post by **Irri** » 2011-05-13 15:49

Hi and thanks.

So I can just invert the speaker cables? My speaker are aktiv, but with separate power amps (not built into the speakers).

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-05-13 20:05

Yes. This is what the manual says:

"Please note that Kikkin inverts the phase to your power amplifier. Therefore connect the positive output (red) of the power amplifier to the negative (black) loudspeaker terminal, and the negative output to the positive loudspeaker terminal."

This inversion can be done either at the back of the power amp OR at the back of the speakers. Not both! :)

Don't hesitate to ask again if you don't understand my explanation. This is one of those things that is a hundred times more difficult to explain in words than to show in a picture. In future manuals, I promise to make drawings.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2011-05-14 09:09

Irri wrote:Hi and thanks.

So I can just invert the speaker cables? My speaker are aktiv, but with separate power amps (not built into the speakers).

Get ready for a big upgrade Irri! :o)

Your 3-way 109s will each need 3 pairs of connections swapping round (red to black, black to red), so super-tweeter, tweeter and mid/bass.

Irri · Post by **Irri** » 2011-05-14 11:44

Thanks for the info. I don't think the manual is the problem, more the fact that I didn't bother to read it properly. Inverting phase is pretty easy to understand, I was just checking that there wasn't some strange reason that required the phase to be inverted before the crossover cards in the amp.

By the way, how do I know what revision my Kikkin is? It just says 2 on it. I might be doing some sailing in Sweden this summer, so could send it for an upgrade if necessary.

Charlie, how do you know what speakers I have? :) It is an improvement. Hard to describe though. Oddly, the bass seems a little weaker. I would have expected it to be the other way around as the speaker should be compressing the room in absolute phase.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-05-14 16:13

At the back of the latest version, Kikkin 2.2, it says only 'Kikkin 2'. But beside the serial number, there are two golden dots.

Aktiv 109's are really nice. Good enough to show the qualities of any source, in my opinion.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2011-05-14 21:14

Irri wrote:Charlie, how do you know what speakers I have? :) It is an improvement. Hard to describe though. Oddly, the bass seems a little weaker. I would have expected it to be the other way around as the speaker should be compressing the room in absolute phase.

I've seen your system spec on the Linn forum. It stuck in my mind because I'd pondered beforehand on what would be the best value for money digital setup, buying new at this point in time, and thought it could well be ADS1 > Kikkin2 > 6100/D > 109s, although I've never had the chance to hear it, so just speculation.

I've found incorrect phase makes the musicality much more laboured and the presentation sounds shut in and muffled. I don't think it breaks the musicality though or totally gets in the way of enjoying music, so not surprised you didn't feel unhappy beforehand.

Wouldn't be surprised if you need to re-position your speakers a touch as the phase does affect the sound quite a bit. Maybe this will help restore your bass, but it's also possible what you heard before was distorted bass as that can sound like 'more' bass than there really is on the recording.

Irri · Post by **Irri** » 2011-05-15 15:38

Well, no dots on my Kikkin. Does it need to go back to Sweden for the upgrade or can it be done in the UK?

I like the 109s, especially aktiv. I don't know that I would want anything more revealing as they already reveal the limits of a lot of recordings. I do find them lacking in bass in the room I'm in at the moment though. I think it's just a too big for them to fill.

The correct phase seems to sound more musical, but I might back off on the tweeter gain as things sound a little sharper than before. There isn't much room for speaker adjustment in my room.

Nice to know my selection of components isn't a bad one :)

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2011-05-15 15:45

Irri wrote:The correct phase seems to sound more musical, but I might back off on the tweeter gain as things sound a little sharper than before. There isn't much room for speaker adjustment in my room.

Correct phase does sound more open up top (in my setup), so not surprised you need to restore the tweeter setting.

I was thinking more along the lines of 5 to 10mm speaker adjustment, so not much. Certainly, I've never had to move them more than an inch after a big upgrade. When I recently cut the Majik 140 internal link to drop the bass level then the speakers needing moving a few mm before the music was foremost instead of hi-fi. That last few mm makes a strange amount of difference. Also, when I was aktiv (with Ninkas) it seemed even more important. Passive seems more forgiving, but still very important in terms of being able to sit back and enjoy music, without distraction, even if there isn't as much bass as you'd like.

Irri · Post by **Irri** » 2011-05-15 17:17

I seem to be eternally roughing out the speaker positions and never quite getting to the fine tuning. I guess that's due to me moving around a lot so by the time I get things right in one room, I'm off to another. I've just moved them a little (2cm) closer which seems to have focused the soundstage. I think I'll make a decision on the tweeter gain, get accustomed to the sound, then try some minor adjustments like you suggest.

How do you find the 140s? Are they just 109s with more bass?

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2011-05-15 19:11

Irri wrote:I seem to be eternally roughing out the speaker positions and never quite getting to the fine tuning. I guess that's due to me moving around a lot so by the time I get things right in one room, I'm off to another. I've just moved them a little (2cm) closer which seems to have focused the soundstage. I think I'll make a decision on the tweeter gain, get accustomed to the sound, then try some minor adjustments like you suggest.

How do you find the 140s? Are they just 109s with more bass?

I don't know if you're using the Tune Method or not Irri, but would say if you're not then it's a lottery. It's a question of trusting in the method and seeing it through, even if that takes a few evenings. Maybe you're using Tune Method anyway. If not, then set the amp settings back to default, check you've got all your interconnects and speaker cables the right way round, check it's all Linn power cables (on the Linn kit) in case they got mixed up with other kit during your last move and have another go with it. I get very enthusiastic about this because I've been so pleased with the results, but hope I'm not being too pushy.

As for 140s, I never heard them at home against 109s on the same amp, so can be sure, but I suspect you're broadly correct. Difficult for you being aktiv and already invested in 109 cards and needing another amp to drive 140s aktiv plus new cards. I suspect I wouldn't be that happy with 140s passive with an x100 amp. x200 is very good. The quality of 140 bass is not top notch though. It's OK. There is certainly plenty of it, but then that's probably cos it's not as well controlled as if could be. Depends what you're used to I suppose. I'm happy enough, but then I've never lived with, and got used to high quality deep bass. And I got such a great deal on them from my dealer, that I cannot be too hard on them for the price I paid. 242s have well controlled bass and suspect the new Majik Isobarik speaker will do likewise. The Majik 140 stands are said to improve the bass, but then you're looking at a £2k speaker and double what you've spent on 109s.

If everything fails and you're still not happy then I guess you could look at selling the 6100 and cards and getting a 2200 or 4200. See how things are then with the 109s. If it's still not enough oomph then look at 140s or 2nd hand 242s if you can stretch that far.

There's always ATC of course, or PMC Fact 8s I've been told are musical. The PMC are an unusal design I seem to recall and was told they offer an awful lot of controlled bass and kick for their size.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2011-05-15 19:40

Irri wrote:Well, no dots on my Kikkin. Does it need to go back to Sweden for the upgrade or can it be done in the UK?

It has to go back to my lab. There's both a new firmware, some hardware changes and a recalibration required.

You can either have your retailer send it to me, or contact me directly on [email protected].

Irri · Post by **Irri** » 2011-05-16 11:46

Charlie,

Not too pushy at all. I have used the tune dem method in the past and it did seem to work. The trouble for me is that, if the treble is too bright, I won't be able to get past that, however tuneful the system is. I've backed off the treble one notch now. It's much less impressive sounding, but I find I listen to the end of a track rather than skipping to the next like I did before. I'll try the tune dem next.

I'm not sure a 2200 would be an improvement. The speakers can only move so much air. I might have a look at the new isobarik when it comes out; I could just add a 2200 for the bass.

I won't sell the 109s as I have a Sneaky sitting idle and they would go well with it for a bedroom system. If anything is going to go, it would be the DS in favour of a Sondek.

I think I'll listen to a few different speakers next time I'm at my dealer. Not sure if they have PMC.

Lejonklou,

I'll send my Kikkin back when I am in Sweden in the summer. I'll contact you in advance.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2011-05-16 13:45

Irri wrote:Not too pushy at all.

Phew. It's never easy to know how to pitch things.

Irri wrote:The trouble for me is that, if the treble is too bright, I won't be able to get past that, however tuneful the system is.

Fair enough.

Irri wrote:I'm not sure a 2200 would be an improvement. The speakers can only move so much air. I might have a look at the new isobarik when it comes out; I could just add a 2200 for the bass.

Sure. I guess I saw it more as a stepping stone to floorstanding Linn speakers, without having to spend out hugely on going aktiv, but if it fixed the 109 bass issue in the process, then great.

Irri · Post by **Irri** » 2011-05-16 19:04

I meant add the 2200 for the bass of the isobarik, assuming it is 4-way aktiv.