European power strip

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Charlie1
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:bass - drum relation is worth listening for
Yes, and I think the piano/bass/drum relationship at the end of the Steely Dan track too.

Having spent most of the week with pre-first and gone back today, I will stick with Radikal first. I think the nail in the coffin was Beethoven's 5th. I am very fond of this piece of music and I just couldn't enjoy it as much. There was something forced/strained about it.

Pre-first is kind of more exciting to begin with and makes a nice change, but can get a little irritating and is not for me in the long-term. I think I will enjoy a wider range of music with radikal-first.

Thanks again to everyone that contributed. Cheers for now.
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Re: European power strip

Post by u252agz »

lejonklou wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:I took some more clips. They were taken on a different Apple device but that shouldn't impact the test:

Pre 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9z2r75pzzt3a ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jegda02gf75c6 ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Rad 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sw9p46hxb26b2 ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Rad 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d2h4ozbx5zkay ... 4.MOV?dl=0
Pre first for me again.


But there's also something slightly out of tune in Radikal first.

In Pre first, they all melt together and the focus shifts to the main melody.

This is what I am hearing and once I think things are out of tune ( even slightly) I struggle to appreciate individual instruments or any sound parameters.

If i think it is in tune - then I can relax and enjoy the nuances of sound.

Great clips - really cut to the chase of what we are listening for in systems.
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Charlie1
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

u252agz wrote:...and once I think things are out of tune ( even slightly) I struggle to appreciate individual instruments or any sound parameters.

If i think it is in tune - then I can relax and enjoy the nuances of sound.
I do understand. I hear the same tunefulness too. The guitar notes at the start of the Steely Dan clip struck me as a good example of what you and others are hearing.
u252agz wrote:Great clips - really cut to the chase of what we are listening for in systems.
Thanks u252agz.
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Re: European power strip

Post by ThomasOK »

I have to say I am also still pre first. It was particularly noticeable on track three where pre first made me want to bop around to the music in my chair whereas Radikal first left me flat. Didn't hear quite as big a difference in track four but still found pre first easier to follow and enjoy. Nice to see we now have tracks without the record brush placement variable. :-)
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Charlie1
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote:Nice to see we now have tracks without the record brush placement variable. :-)
Made me chuckle :)
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

I am a guest on Fredriks forum so please tell me when I start to sound like an internet troll. That is not what I am trying to be.

Just to be clear: my take on charlie1's clips is that if we could magnifie what is happening even further then the bass and drum beats would be clearly out of time, pulled apart (well everything actually) on the pre first clips. With Radikal first we hit a spot where the music comes together and the real form of the recordings leaps out from the "canvas" because all small details becomes part of a whole. It is a kind of transformation from all parts almost in place to "in place".
The music starts to sound like made by humans, not machines thereby also with instruments not perfectly in tune.
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Re: European power strip

Post by tokenbrit »

You are not being a troll as far as I am concerned: you are not taking a contrary position just to be antagonistic... Are you? ;) Your comments are on topic, and from the heart (& ears) Doesn't mean I agree with you though :)
I can see/hear the attraction of Rad-1st, but I still think pre-1st is more 'together' musically. Rad-1st makes it sound like the drummer and guitarist have had coffee while the vocalist had a herb tea... They still perform as a band but the rhythm is driving. Pre-1st they have all had the same to drink, and the drums & guitar are the drive rather than drivers.
Nice to have the set-up option(s), and to have the opportunity to compare. Thanks Charlie for the clips, beck for promoting the use of clips here, and those who share their thoughts on them. Always fun. And educational.
Last edited by tokenbrit on 2017-09-18 11:58, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

No, I am not trying to be atagonieti.... something :-). Just passionate about it.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

tokenbrit wrote:I can see/hear the attraction of Rad-1st, but I still think pre-1st is more 'together' musically. Rad-1st makes it sound like the drummer and guitarist have had coffee while the vocalist had a herb tea... They still perform as a band but the rhythm is driving. Pre-1st they have all had the same to drink, and the drums & guitar are the drive rather than drivers.
Great analogy, reference the consumption of hot drinks :)

I had a listen whilst keeping in mind what you describe and think I get it. It doesn't help that the drums on Rad-1st sound a fraction louder/more powerful (John Bonham style), but yeah, I think I know what you mean.

Not sure how this would relate to the classical piece I preferred on Rad-1st where there's no bass/drums. I might compare again when I get time.

I seem to hear differences when I listen out for them. In fact, my preference seems to drift between the two. Some days I've had a clear preference for one and then it swaps around again. Strange. Today it's pre-first and I can't even hear the sync in Rad-1st. Maybe my own caffeine levels are at work here :)

The challenge is determining which is more important to me and my normal listening. This is a very unusual situation though. Normally, I just prefer the option with better tune and that's the end of it.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

It is indeed very interesting. Not talking about the clips I think that before "autotune" and digital in generel it is hard to believe that we would not be able to hear any notes from a recording being just a little out of tune or delivered a little different than from the other musicians.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Spannko »

When I first heard the clips I had a clear preference for Radikal first. At the time, the consensus amongst our experienced listeners was for pre first, so with the courage of a mouse, I bowed to peer pressure and kept my difference of opinion to myself!

However, now a couple of "lions" have spoken up against the consensus, I feel empowered to roar out my opinion with an emphatic "eek, eek"! For me, the difference is pretty huge, and at a fundamental level too. Radikal first makes the music sound alive - real musicians playing real music. Drums sound like they're being played live, in the room. Backing instrumentalists are on time and more in tune. It has a sound which makes me forget momentarily that I'm listening to music played through iPad speakers - I'm in the room, moovin' and a groovin'! Pre first sounds like a "HiFi" system and I'm left feeling like an observer of the music, rather than a participant in the music.
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Re: European power strip

Post by maffe »

This is really interesting to read and listen to!
Any thought on integrated RIAA vs separat and the impact on order in the power strip?
I understand that it will be hard to know whats what when an ADSM vs ADSM + Slipsik for example...
Hope that made any sense at all :P
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote:For me, the difference is pretty huge, and at a fundamental level too. Radikal first makes the music sound alive - real musicians playing real music. Drums sound like they're being played live, in the room. Backing instrumentalists are on time and more in tune. It has a sound which makes me forget momentarily that I'm listening to music played through iPad speakers - I'm in the room, moovin' and a groovin'! Pre first sounds like a "HiFi" system and I'm left feeling like an observer of the music, rather than a participant in the music.
Thanks Spannko for sharing your thoughts. I can identify with what you say.

I've come to the conclusion that each clip is both superior and inferior depending upon 'how' I listen. So for the Steely Dan clip, if I start off following the lead guitar then pre-first is definitely easier to follow and simply sounds much more in tune. Whereas, if I focus more on timing and the drums/cymbals, whilst obviously still enjoying the lead guitar, then rad-first is easier to follow and makes more sense. As soon as I try this approach with pre-first then the whole track starts to fall apart and trip over itself - it becomes an unpleasant mess and hard to keep track of. On the other hand, pre-first is probably the more compelling of the two when listening the way that suits it more.

Maybe we need to accept that people vary in the way their minds appreciate music? Perhaps someone that naturally gravitates to the timing/drums of a track will find pre-first really quite hard going, whereas someone very sensitive to pitch will find radikal-first quite boring and out of tune.

Thoughts?
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

I can only agree with you Charlie1. With pre first everything seem better in tune especially if your record is a fully analog recording.
My point is that it is actually a product of the full music signal being pushed slightly out of true. With Radikal first the real connection to the recording comes through and the real relation between the tones being played reveal itself sometimes not perfectly in tune.
I do understand why people like pre first. The "auto tune" is gentle and can be kind of nice. Personally I am in no doubt that it is artificial.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:My point is that it is actually a product of the full music signal being pushed slightly out of true.
Hi Beck, I struggle with your theory a bit. It just sounds a bit far fetched that the signal is being pushed out of true but fortunately happens to end up more tuneful. I would have thought it more likely to be more untuneful.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote:
beck wrote:My point is that it is actually a product of the full music signal being pushed slightly out of true.
Hi Beck, I struggle with your theory a bit. It just sounds a bit far fetched that the signal is being pushed out of true but fortunately happens to end up more tuneful. I would have thought it more likely to be more untuneful.
Yes, it does sound far fetched but I can only say that it is actually what I hear. When I listen to pre first I hear the overtones of the music signal being unnatural (compared to radikal first). Sorry for not being able to explain it better. :-)
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Re: European power strip

Post by lejonklou »

To me the idea of pre first acting like an autotune - and for that reason some of us would prefer it - reminds me of the once quite common accusations of in particular Linn equipment distorting and simplifying music to make it appear as more fun than it actually is.

Those arguments never made any sense to me.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

"Autotune" as in a slight disturbance of the music signal that breaks the normal connection between the pitch of the notes making the listener think everything is in tune.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Spannko wrote: For me, the difference is pretty huge, and at a fundamental level too. Radikal first makes the music sound alive - real musicians playing real music. Drums sound like they're being played live, in the room. Backing instrumentalists are on time and more in tune. It has a sound which makes me forget momentarily that I'm listening to music played through iPad speakers - I'm in the room, moovin' and a groovin'! Pre first sounds like a "HiFi" system and I'm left feeling like an observer of the music, rather than a participant in the music.
I find this to be the best describtion of what we heard from your clips Charlie1.
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Re: European power strip

Post by lejonklou »

beck wrote:"Autotune" as in a slight disturbance of the music signal that breaks the normal connection between the pitch of the notes making the listener think everything is in tune.
I object to the thinking behind the words "making the listener think everything is in tune". I simply don't think that's a possibility.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Spannko »

I must admit, hearing the same thing but coming to a different conclusion to the heard is a little bit disconcerting!

I’ve listened on my iPad, through the speakers and through iPhone headphones and both times I preferred Radikal first. I used my daughters headphones this evening and came to the same conclusion on three of the tracks and confused myself totally on the fourth!

Would it be possible for you to play a piano sonata, charlie1? This would help me to focus fully on the tune, and not be distracted by anything else.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

lejonklou wrote:
beck wrote:"Autotune" as in a slight disturbance of the music signal that breaks the normal connection between the pitch of the notes making the listener think everything is in tune.
I object to the thinking behind the words "making the listener think everything is in tune". I simply don't think that's a possibility.
The beauty of it all is that like in the film "Bruce the Almighty" I (Bruce) have to accept that I cannot mess with free will. But I can ask why! :-)
My single guideline to a great hifi system is that I personally shall be able to relate to the sound the same way as in real life teaching and playing music. Radikal first gets me there. Not a great help to others!

Charlie1's clips are fantastic to me because they are letting us look right down at the pumping heart of the music signal.
The road we choose from here will have a profound impact on what kind of system we end up with. In the end we are alone on this decision.

"And that's the way the cookie crumbles." :-)
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

Spannko wrote:I must admit, hearing the same thing but coming to a different conclusion to the heard is a little bit disconcerting!

I’ve listened on my iPad, through the speakers and through iPhone headphones and both times I preferred Radikal first. I used my daughters headphones this evening and came to the same conclusion on three of the tracks and confused myself totally on the fourth!

Would it be possible for you to play a piano sonata, charlie1? This would help me to focus fully on the tune, and not be distracted by anything else.
I'll try to do a piano sonata clip at some point but it might be a few days.
I don't think you'll hear anything different listening via different media. It's the way I was listening that made the difference.
beck wrote:I find this to be the best describtion of what we heard from your clips Charlie1.
Yep, I agree, although that's only when I'm dialled into what rad-first can do. This topic has been so interesting because we tend to agree on this forum about what is best, but this one has really split opinion.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

I find the next two clips related to the above discussion even though I am comparing AAA to AAD on my system via my vinyl records. Have a listen.

Clips removed (irrelevant)
Last edited by beck on 2017-09-26 20:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

I think everything is better in the AAA clip though beck, tune, timing, sync, the lot. I doubt anyone will prefer AAD.

Good clip though and interesting to hear the digital impact in this instance, which is not nice.
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