European power strip

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beck
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote:Oh, got me worried now :)

When you compare the opening twang of track 1, don't you find it seems to make more sense on the pre-1st clip?
No need to be worried. I do not listen like you do. I use the musician within when possible. I find the musical timing and the "structure" of the overtones more natural with Radikal first. Wait for Fredrik and possibly some others to give their opinion. This could easily have been me in front of my system being in doubt.
The clips do seem to set things straight.
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Re: European power strip

Post by tokenbrit »

I can see why beck likes radikal first, but I prefer pre first. Both carry the tune - radikal first emphasises the timing; pre first has the timing but let's me hear more of the harmony, and make more sense of the tune. I had a hard time with it though - it was easier on my phone than on the laptop... Ultimately, I felt pre first was more engaging.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:No need to be worried. I do not listen like you do. I use the musician within when possible. I find the musical timing and the "structure" of the overtones more natural with Radikal first. Wait for Fredrik and possibly some others to give their opinion. This could easily have been me in front of my system being in doubt.
The clips do seem to set things straight.
I had another quick listen to the actual system. I think the way you are leaning is similar to some of my previous decisions, such as my initial preference for Isoblue rack over the Archidee. The Radikal-first option smudges the sound together in an appealing and cohesive way, similar to the Isoblue. Yet, ultimately (for me), the KK-first unravels the recording a bit more and makes it easier to both hear into the recording, but more importantly, easier to understand the tune being played. But if everyone agrees with you Beck, then I'll probably change my mind again, such is a power of peer opinion.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

Thanks for chipping in Tokenbrit. It will be interesting to see what others think too.
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Re: European power strip

Post by ThomasOK »

This was a little harder one in some ways. On the Fleetwood Mac track there was no question to me that the pre first version was more musical - it just did everything better. On the other track it was a bit closer. Overall I felt that the pre first track was more musical but it also had a bit of edginess to it that the Radikal first one didn't. I still don't think the Radikal first was as good as the notes were harder to follow, I just would rather hear the track as presented by the pre first setup but without the edginess. I am not familiar with this recording so I have no idea if it is on the record that way or if something else is causing it.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Ahh, this is what I have been missing. This is like when we first started posting clips. I just love when we have the same focus and dedication.
I have not changed my mind but it is your system charlie1 and your decision.

And no hard feelings at all :-).
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote:...but it also had a bit of edginess to it.
I had not noticed this, especially in the room where it sounds like a typical warm analogue / 70s recording. It's from Emmylou Harris' debut 'Pieces of the Sky' btw, which I picked up on holiday last week in an antique toy shop, of all places.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts too.
beck wrote:Ahh, this is what I have been missing. This is like when we first started posting clips. I just love when we have the same focus and dedication.
I have not changed my mind but it is your system charlie1 and your decision.
Yes, it's good fun. The final test will come in a week or so when I switch back to Radikal-first.
beck wrote:And no hard feelings at all :-).
Not at all - I appreciate your honesty.
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Re: European power strip

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote:Here you go Fredrik, you can decide for yourself with a couple of different tempo tracks. Carbon brush on the left is KK-first. Brush on the right-hand side is Radikal first. I'm not going back to Radikal first. I'm confident (for a change) that you will once again prefer pre-first, but we'll see...

Pre 1st Track 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccym0mn4cl8nf ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st Track 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8k3xxs9t2v3sr ... 2.MOV?dl=0

Radikal 1st Track 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5rdhnerlghrnk ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Radikal 1st Track 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4rhvbb9uk2kwf ... 2.MOV?dl=0

Track 2 is one that I always think has a lot of swing and really suited Ninkas, thinking back to recent Boogie thread, but my idea of swing is perhaps out of line with most peoples, but anyway, I'm off topic.
Track 1 was difficult. But I found it easier to dance to Track 2 when the carbon brush is on the left side.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

I would like to say that you charlie1 have been fantastic at making clips all along that really get to the core and make me think twice.

Getting a little deeper into what I hear I can say that when listening to Radikal first I can zoom into an instrument (bass, guitar, voice) without the others being annoying. They fold nicely into the sound I focus on.
With Pre first I have to fight them off to concentrate on the one instrument.

With Radikal first I find that the instruments and voices comes alive more(Ivors "inflatable doll versus real woman" poster add comes to my mind).

I do hear that the groove in "Don't Stop" seem a bit more messy with Radikal first but I like it more. Finally I find the overall sound from the clips more natural with Radikal first.

I must accept however that I am clearly outnumbered! :-)
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:I would like to say that you charlie1 have been fantastic at making clips all along that really get to the core and make me think twice.
Thanks Beck. It's my pleasure. I enjoy doing them provided I have the time. It's a little bit my youth, making cassette tapes up for friends. Besides, yours and everyones feedback has been enormously helpful.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:Getting a little deeper into what I hear I can say that when listening to Radikal first I can zoom into an instrument (bass, guitar, voice) without the others being annoying. They fold nicely into the sound I focus on. With Pre first I have to fight them off to concentrate on the one instrument.
I had another listen today. I could really dial into what you are saying during the first comparison and didn't find the pre-first offered much. Then, I compared again using the same track and kind of lost that and went back to finding the pre-first better all round. This time, I found it hard to hear what you describe and the Radikal-first seem sluggish and a bit confused.

I'm not sure how well we understand our own minds and relationship with music. Perhaps I was in a slightly different mind set - don't know. What I find particularly interesting is that we're both focussing on musical elements and yet coming to a different answer.
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Re: European power strip

Post by ThomasOK »

lejonklou wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:Here you go Fredrik, you can decide for yourself with a couple of different tempo tracks. Carbon brush on the left is KK-first. Brush on the right-hand side is Radikal first. I'm not going back to Radikal first. I'm confident (for a change) that you will once again prefer pre-first, but we'll see...

Pre 1st Track 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccym0mn4cl8nf ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st Track 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8k3xxs9t2v3sr ... 2.MOV?dl=0

Radikal 1st Track 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5rdhnerlghrnk ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Radikal 1st Track 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4rhvbb9uk2kwf ... 2.MOV?dl=0

Track 2 is one that I always think has a lot of swing and really suited Ninkas, thinking back to recent Boogie thread, but my idea of swing is perhaps out of line with most peoples, but anyway, I'm off topic.
Track 1 was difficult. But I found it easier to dance to Track 2 when the carbon brush is on the left side.
Nice way to be cryptic, Fredrik! ;-) I had to go back and see which one had the brush on the left side.

So there you have it, the consensus is that having the record brush closer to the LP12 makes the system sound better - at least on Fleetwood Mac. :-) Not so much on Emmylou. But maybe turning the record brush 90 degrees is the problem there!
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Charlie1 wrote:
beck wrote:Getting a little deeper into what I hear I can say that when listening to Radikal first I can zoom into an instrument (bass, guitar, voice) without the others being annoying. They fold nicely into the sound I focus on. With Pre first I have to fight them off to concentrate on the one instrument.
I had another listen today. I could really dial into what you are saying during the first comparison and didn't find the pre-first offered much. Then, I compared again using the same track and kind of lost that and went back to finding the pre-first better all round. This time, I found it hard to hear what you describe and the Radikal-first seem sluggish and a bit confused.

I'm not sure how well we understand our own minds and relationship with music. Perhaps I was in a slightly different mind set - don't know. What I find particularly interesting is that we're both focussing on musical elements and yet coming to a different answer.
Firstly it is your enjoyment of your system that counts. Nothing else. We are talking about small differences but to me they are important.

My main belief is that much of the detail we hear from hifi systems are created by the system itself by pushing the structure of the overtones out of true. We hear it clearly with the Tranq when fitted to the Sondek. It plays slightly out of tune but doing so it opens up for detail to come to the fore making it easy for our ears to pick up. In real life this detail would have been folded into the tones being part of the body of the tones making them more robust. Your clips are just showing much less of a change (according to me :-)).

That is why when I listen to the clips I concentrate on how natural I find the tones behave together. Your clips represent to me the first tiny step away from "in tune".

So where does it leave us? We like a detailed presentation of the music. We can choose systems that are very detailed but slightly out of tune or we can choose systems balanced (in tune) with slightly less obvious detail but more real (more body, less see through).

I can relate to your comment about being able to hear it two different ways. It all depends on our main focus.

All this is just my take and many other takes can be found. I can say that the above is what I use as guide when setting up or making changes to my system.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

beck wrote:Firstly it is your enjoyment of your system that counts. Nothing else.
Agreed. We are just discussing the evaluation method here, the short-cut, if you like. I've yet to conclude which is best in the long term. It's pre-first so far, but we'll see.
beck wrote:We are talking about small differences but to me they are important.
Also agree. For me, they get to the nub of a conundrum that I'd been struggling with a year or three ago. It's why I have sometimes gone against other folks that I trust on here, but I think I'm beginning to better understand it now.
beck wrote:So where does it leave us? We like a detailed presentation of the music. We can choose systems that are very detailed but slightly out of tune or we can choose systems balanced (in tune) with slightly less obvious detail but more real (more body, less see through).
I would argue pre-first gives both :)
beck wrote:I can relate to your comment about being able to hear it two different ways. It all depends on our main focus.
Yes, I agree, although for me to prefer Radikal-first, my focus has to be on the music blending into one as a more harmonious whole, and even then, it doesn't always strike me that way. However, as much as I like Radikal-first, I'm being more engaged by the music via pre-first. Radikal-first would be my choice for nice background music whilst working.

I suspect this is all too in-depth and tedious for most readers so I will stop waffling. Thanks for your help/sharing your views.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Thank you for a good discussion. Who knows: if we were sitting in the same room listening we might agree on what is best, or not! :-)
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Re: European power strip

Post by u252agz »

I prefer pre first for both tracks, and agree it is a bit more difficult with track 1 - until the vocals start, that is. Then I have a clear preference .

These comparisons are great for reinforcing just what we are looking for in our systems.

Keep them coming!
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Re: European power strip

Post by u252agz »

u252agz wrote:
I prefer pre first for both tracks, and agree it is a bit more difficult with track 1 - until the vocals start, that is. Then I have a clear preference .

Once I have decided ( usually very quickly) I find I am consistent . No ifs and buts and I would always choose that recording to listen to in preference to the other, good as it may seem in isolation.

These comparisons are great for reinforcing just what we are looking for in our systems.

Keep them coming!
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

If you listen to the Fleetwood Mac track, when the bass and drums kick in together, they do sound more in sync on the Rad-first clip, which helps drive the song along. Thanks to Beck for highlighting this to me. Does this resonate with anyone that prefers the pre-first clip?

I gotta say that they offer different things to me, both of a musical nature, which is highly unusual.
u252agz wrote:These comparisons are great for reinforcing just what we are looking for in our systems.

Keep them coming!
Thanks u252agz

I took some more clips. They were taken on a different Apple device but that shouldn't impact the test:

Pre 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9z2r75pzzt3a ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jegda02gf75c6 ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Rad 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sw9p46hxb26b2 ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Rad 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d2h4ozbx5zkay ... 4.MOV?dl=0
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

I am just glad that you do understand what I am getting at. :-)
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Re: European power strip

Post by u252agz »

Charlie1 wrote:

I took some more clips. They were taken on a different Apple device but that shouldn't impact the test:

Pre 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9z2r75pzzt3a ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jegda02gf75c6 ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Rad 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sw9p46hxb26b2 ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Rad 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d2h4ozbx5zkay ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Pre first again for me. Just more musical .
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Re: European power strip

Post by lejonklou »

beck wrote:My main belief is that much of the detail we hear from hifi systems are created by the system itself by pushing the structure of the overtones out of true. We hear it clearly with the Tranq when fitted to the Sondek. It plays slightly out of tune but doing so it opens up for detail to come to the fore making it easy for our ears to pick up. In real life this detail would have been folded into the tones being part of the body of the tones making them more robust. Your clips are just showing much less of a change (according to me :-)).

That is why when I listen to the clips I concentrate on how natural I find the tones behave together. Your clips represent to me the first tiny step away from "in tune".

So where does it leave us? We like a detailed presentation of the music. We can choose systems that are very detailed but slightly out of tune or we can choose systems balanced (in tune) with slightly less obvious detail but more real (more body, less see through).
What you write above makes a lot of sense to me, beck. Especially that overtones "out of true" (nice expression) creates an impression of increased detail, which is often a trap. A very similar trap, common in everything digital, is clarity.

But then you also write this:
beck wrote:Getting a little deeper into what I hear I can say that when listening to Radikal first I can zoom into an instrument (bass, guitar, voice) without the others being annoying. They fold nicely into the sound I focus on. With Pre first I have to fight them off to concentrate on the one instrument.
I feel unsure whether the ability to "zoom into an instrument" is a sign of quality. It could just as well be a trap. When using the Tune Method, the focus is the interplay between instruments, following the dance of notes. Not really being able to zoom into an instrument without being distracted by others.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Lejonklou: " I feel unsure whether the ability to "zoom into an instrument" is a sign of quality. It could just as well be a trap. When using the Tune Method, the focus is the interplay between instruments, following the dance of notes. Not really being able to zoom into an instrument without being distracted by others."


We agree that it is all about the interplay. When the overtones have been pushed out of true it is easy to focus on the individuel instruments but at the same time it is kind of hurting my ears because I cannot create the same relation between the notes that I am used to from real life. In my head they act like magnets that reject each other (distracted).
"Zoom in" is just me moving my main focus to let's say the bass and sense if the surrounding notes act like I expect them to. If they do I can sense it all at the same time (not being distracted) as being together and in tune, if not my focus has to shift rapidly between the different instruments to find out what they do.

The above is technic for me. I like Ozzzy189's take on it all. Music is something we feel with open minds. I feel the music more with Radikal first.
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Re: European power strip

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote:I took some more clips. They were taken on a different Apple device but that shouldn't impact the test:

Pre 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9z2r75pzzt3a ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jegda02gf75c6 ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Rad 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sw9p46hxb26b2 ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Rad 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d2h4ozbx5zkay ... 4.MOV?dl=0
Pre first for me again.

It's funny how I feel that the drums are more forward and the other instruments more separated in Radikal first. I do agree with beck that they seem easier to zoom in on and pick apart.

But there's also something slightly out of tune in Radikal first. Its as if they're a tiny bit clumsy and haven't tuned their instruments.

In Pre first, they all melt together and the focus shifts to the main melody. Drums move back in with the others, no-one is allowed to stand out.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

lejonklou wrote:
Charlie1 wrote:I took some more clips. They were taken on a different Apple device but that shouldn't impact the test:

Pre 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i9z2r75pzzt3a ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jegda02gf75c6 ... 4.MOV?dl=0

Rad 1st Track 3: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sw9p46hxb26b2 ... 3.MOV?dl=0
Rad 1st Track 4: https://www.dropbox.com/s/d2h4ozbx5zkay ... 4.MOV?dl=0
Pre first for me again.

It's funny how I feel that the drums are more forward and the other instruments more separated in Radikal first. I do agree with beck that they seem easier to zoom in on and pick apart.

But there's also something slightly out of tune in Radikal first. Its as if they're a tiny bit clumsy and haven't tuned their instruments.

In Pre first, they all melt together and the focus shifts to the main melody. Drums move back in with the others, no-one is allowed to stand out.
This is really, really interesting. I agree with the descriptions of what we hear but come to another conclusion.
To me the smooth surface of the sound from pre first equals artificiel sound and the slightly clumsy sound equals real sound. Just more comes through (dirty and all).

A step back I hear Pre first as "water colouring" and radikal first as "oil painting". When making a small dot on the "paper" it can either stay small and concentrated (oil painting) or spread out and get thinner (water colouring).
I find more piano=piano in Radikal first.
Last edited by beck on 2017-09-15 22:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

I some ways to me this is not about being right or wrong. When I come home from a visit to a hifi store I am glad to put on music at home because at home I can hear the sweat and tears come out of my system.

Listening to charlie1's and maffes clips the same thing happens. It is a kind of transformation of the sound. On the one hand you have stellar sound and on the other a more dirty and forceful presentation. But listening to the rytmic nature of the music the groove and how the musicians act together it is actually the opposite that holds true.
The stellar sound is created by musicians ever so slightly out of time with each other and the dirty sound is created by musicians that grooves together putting the pressure on the same spots along the way (bass - drum relation is worth listening for).
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