European power strip

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Post by lejonklou »

stefan wrote:You use Slipsik, Fredrik ? I do. Is that preamp or source ?
Yes, I do and it's a source. The order in my power strip is: Preamp, Radikal, Slipsik, ...

I also have other sources. I find that the one plugged in closest to the preamp gets the "best position". So it seems wise to use this order: Preamp, Most important source, Second most important source, Third most important source, ...
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Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:Please try this and report back what you think!
Yes, my system is the same, based on a quick listen. It was quite clearly musically better and more engaging with Kikkin first, then Radikal, then Linto, and lastly 4200. I never actually compared these before. Was there a close second worth comparing (other than the standard source first line-up)?

Thanks for sharing this Fredrik!
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Post by stefan »

lejonklou wrote:
stefan wrote:You use Slipsik, Fredrik ? I do. Is that preamp or source ?
Yes, I do and it's a source. The order in my power strip is: Preamp, Radikal, Slipsik, ...

I also have other sources. I find that the one plugged in closest to the preamp gets the "best position". So it seems wise to use this order: Preamp, Most important source, Second most important source, Third most important source, ...
OK, thanks Fredrik!
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Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote:Was there a close second worth comparing (other than the standard source first line-up)?
Thanks for reporting back, stefan and Charlie!

The second best order appears to be the "standard source first" (Sources - Pre amp - Power amp). All other variants I've tried have been considerably worse. Reversing the order of the Radikal and phono stage is also a bit worse. Radikal should be number two, after preamp, if one considers the LP12 to be top priority.
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Post by lunch »

lejonklou wrote:This is currently the order in which I plug the components into a power strip:

Wall --- POWER STRIP[Preamp, Source1, Source2, Power amp1, Power amp2]

This is not a new idea, I remember we discussed and tested different connection orders back in the 90's. For some reason, my conclusion back then was that the sources should be placed first in the power strip, then preamp and last power amps.

I was wrong. Preamp should go first, then sources and last power amps. I don't know if it works on all systems, but so far it has been a success.

Please try this and report back what you think!
I also agree this is the best order. Preamp first.
Incidentally, this recommendation is also the same as recommended by Tonläget Linn dealer in Gothenburg on their web pages.
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Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:Radikal should be number two, after preamp, if one considers the LP12 to be top priority.
Are you surprised? I am.

Is it reasonable to conclude this is more to do with the Radikal's preferences than the pre-amp's? The Radikal being top of the Source First food chain. Even if my Kikkin benefited hugely from the shift from 3rd to 1st position, any minor benefit to the Radikal should, in theory, be more important and the over-riding factor.
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Post by Efraim roots »

lunch wrote:
lejonklou wrote:This is currently the order in which I plug the components into a power strip:

Wall --- POWER STRIP[Preamp, Source1, Source2, Power amp1, Power amp2]

This is not a new idea, I remember we discussed and tested different connection orders back in the 90's. For some reason, my conclusion back then was that the sources should be placed first in the power strip, then preamp and last power amps.

I was wrong. Preamp should go first, then sources and last power amps. I don't know if it works on all systems, but so far it has been a success.

Please try this and report back what you think!
I also agree this is the best order. Preamp first.
Incidentally, this recommendation is also the same as recommended by Tonläget Linn dealer in Gothenburg on their web pages.
Yes, I remember when I first got my system installed by Anders at Tonläget. He plugged in preamp first, but just to be sure we also did the test vs source first and we found preamp first to be best. I was really surprised by this since it didn't follow the source first logic.

I forgot about this when amps were changed, thanks for the reminder!
Seems to sound better with preamp first in todays system also, but still it doesn't seem very logical to me. Preamp is a really important part of the system tho!! I think preamps has very much in common with source in importance (don't forget source interconnect!). To change Kan mk1 to Majik 109, or NAP110 to NAP250 is nothing compared to source and preamp upgrades IME.
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Post by lejonklou »

lunch wrote:Incidentally, this recommendation is also the same as recommended by Tonläget Linn dealer in Gothenburg on their web pages.
Really? I had no idea. And he's my retailer. Maybe I should start listening instead of reinventing the wheel? ;o)

Charlie and Efraim: I'm a bit surprised, yes. But I think the reason why the preamp should be first because it's usually the point where chassis ground meets signal ground at the lowest impedance in the system. So I think it's a ground thing and not an "order of importance" thing. Sources are way more important than the preamp.
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Post by Efraim roots »

Seems logical Fredrik and I was thinking along that route also even tho I don't really understand the technical bits very well. Just that my post turned out to be a opportunity to praise a good preamp. Hope that the one that must not be mentioned is one of those :-)
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Post by Efraim roots »

After a couple of days with pre-first I got the feeling that I was missing something. I have done the test again now and I'm back at source first!

Pre-first has a really good sound to it, relaxed and open, someways really better. When going back to source first it has more drive and rhythms make more sense, musicians play better together, especially drum and bass section.
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Post by Charlie1 »

With pre-amp first, my system definitely seems more at ease with itself (it's had a hard life), but I've not been 100% convinced either. I will re-check.
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Post by lejonklou »

Interesting!

I've also gone back (to source first) once and I agree it's not the simplest of decisions. Both orders make sense musically, although with a different focus. I think preamp first makes more sense in my current system.
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Post by Charlie1 »

I've had a good check. The pre-amp first offers a purity that is quite appealing, especially on some slower tempo music. It seems more engaging. However, I think it's just a euphoric coating and source first is actually making more sense of the music here in my setup, especially more complex pieces. Therefore, I'm sticking source first. Glad I re-checked, thanks to Efraim's comments.
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Post by stefan »

lejonklou wrote:
lunch wrote:Incidentally, this recommendation is also the same as recommended by Tonläget Linn dealer in Gothenburg on their web pages.
Really? I had no idea. And he's my retailer. Maybe I should start listening instead of reinventing the wheel? ;o)
......
Yes, he has given this recommendation for quite some time.
I've been a Tonläget customer for a long time. There have been times when I initially have come to another conclusion than him but in the end he's always been right. Now I just do as he says.
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Post by SaltyDog »

When I tried going back to source first I unplugged the power strip to the socket and removed and replaced the plugs to the ATCs, as well as swapping position of KK and KDS. So all the connections were reestablished/cleaned (just by remove and replace).

The result is that my system is sounding "Don't touch a thing" good.

Sorry if this goes off topic a bit. I thought it important to include the variables in my results FYI.

I have been burning in a a set of silver RCA to XLR cables between KK and ATCs. I have also noticed that the sound can seem to change with restarting the KK in the past. Has anyone one else ever noticed this?

As far as the silvers go, it is normal for the burn in to just snap into tune? This pair sounded really good when first installed and not good for a while. I remember component burn-in waffling back and forth. With these cables it is more like turning a corner.
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Post by lejonklou »

SaltyDog wrote:I have also noticed that the sound can seem to change with restarting the KK in the past. Has anyone one else ever noticed this?
Yes! When a system is very well tuned, it becomes easy to detect such details. My Radikal sounds worse if I switch it off and back on. It takes around 15 minutes to get back to normal performance.

A customer of mine tells me his Radikal behaves the other way around: It sounds better for a while after having been switched off and back on. I'm glad mine isn't like that, it sounds impractical...
SaltyDog wrote:As far as the silvers go, it is normal for the burn in to just snap into tune? This pair sounded really good when first installed and not good for a while. I remember component burn-in waffling back and forth. With these cables it is more like turning a corner.
Burn in is strange. My experience is that after any soldering job, performance can vary for almost 4 months. Some periods it doesn't vary at all, other times it changes gradually and occasionally it makes a radical jump. Once those 4 months have passed, the strange variations disappear.
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Post by pleddyboy »

lejonklou wrote:This is currently the order in which I plug the components into a power strip:

Wall --- POWER STRIP[Preamp, Source1, Source2, Power amp1, Power amp2
And where did the LS-NAS fit inn, as a Source2?

Regards Pål.
KRDS/1, Tundra Stereo, M109 with stands, Silver RCA, K400 and Linn skeets, LS-nas
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Post by lejonklou »

pleddyboy wrote:And where did the LS-NAS fit inn, as a Source2?
Sorry for the late reply!

I have had the best results with the NAS on another power strip, separated from the HiFi. But it was several years since I last made any comparisons with this. Therefore I would like to know what others have found to be the optimal way to connect their digital units.

Please share your findings!
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Post by pleddyboy »

Thanks for your reply Fredrik, hopefully someone has some experience to share in this case.
I have bought a pair of the power strip from Clas Olson that Teemu told about in the Absolute Bargains! thread.
I will do some testing by my self when the time allows me during the summer.
Regards Pål.
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Re:

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:The order in my power strip is: Preamp, Radikal, Slipsik, ...
I could not find your recent comments on this. Google let me down and I couldn't recall the thread.

Anyway, I tried KK > Radikal/Urika > 4200 again and must say I was very wrong. Your order is much better. It's actually a nice micro-upgrade. Clearly better timing / musically and also sounded a touch cleaner too. I ended up playing a whole side of Steely Dan that I really didn't have time for! Many thanks.
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Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote:I could not find your recent comments on this. Google let me down and I couldn't recall the thread.

Anyway, I tried KK > Radikal/Urika > 4200 again and must say I was very wrong. Your order is much better. It's actually a nice micro-upgrade. Clearly better timing / musically and also sounded a touch cleaner too. I ended up playing a whole side of Steely Dan that I really didn't have time for! Many thanks.
I think it could be this one, Charlie:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopi ... 033#p31012

Did you really find preamp first better this time? That's really interesting. You were one those who tested this before and found source first, preamp second being better than preamp first, source second. Another one was Paolo, who compared again (after I insisted) this year and still claimed preamp first sounded strange and worse.

It's not that I'm doubting your findings, I just want to understand why there could be a variation. I've tested this repeatedly since the initial discovery and it's been better every time. In your system it used to be worse, but now it's better. Strange!
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Re: Re:

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote:Did you really find preamp first better this time? That's really interesting. You were one those who tested this before and found source first, preamp second being better than preamp first, source second. Another one was Paolo, who compared again (after I insisted) this year and still claimed preamp first sounded strange and worse.

It's not that I'm doubting your findings, I just want to understand why there could be a variation. I've tested this repeatedly since the initial discovery and it's been better every time. In your system it used to be worse, but now it's better. Strange!
Thanks for the link!

A few thoughts come to mind. I'm sometimes unreliable at tunedem. I don't recall being all that confident when I tried before. I am more confident about this result, but will leave it a few days before switching back again, just to double check. If I forget, then please shout.

Also, I did switch back and forth about 3 times, so it wasn't just one time - which might have cleaned up the plug contacts enough to favour the new sequence.

Lastly, my system is quite a bit better than last time. Maybe it's just easier to hear the benefit now.

There are some things I keep going back to in vain hope. For example, the two fused spurs I had installed. I give them a go once or twice a year and they are always worse. I think, 'maybe we all got it wrong and one of them is better after all', but they never are. It's odd cos, to my mind, they offer a cleaner mains and should be better.

If I get time, I might make a short recording for you (of the different plug sequences), but I think there is too much on this weekend.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

Here you go Fredrik, you can decide for yourself with a couple of different tempo tracks. Carbon brush on the left is KK-first. Brush on the right-hand side is Radikal first. I'm not going back to Radikal first. I'm confident (for a change) that you will once again prefer pre-first, but we'll see...

Pre 1st Track 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ccym0mn4cl8nf ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Pre 1st Track 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8k3xxs9t2v3sr ... 2.MOV?dl=0

Radikal 1st Track 1: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5rdhnerlghrnk ... 1.MOV?dl=0
Radikal 1st Track 2: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4rhvbb9uk2kwf ... 2.MOV?dl=0

Track 2 is one that I always think has a lot of swing and really suited Ninkas, thinking back to recent Boogie thread, but my idea of swing is perhaps out of line with most peoples, but anyway, I'm off topic.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

It is funny so revealing clips are. If it was my system I would go back to Radikal first :-). Just saying.......

All the best. Beck
Playing cd’s…………
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

Oh, got me worried now :)

When you compare the opening twang of track 1, don't you find it seems to make more sense on the pre-1st clip?
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