European power strip

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Defender
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Re: European power strip

Post by Defender »

was just reading the whole thread - really interesting stuff.
I have a suspicion
Maybe beck is an overtone hearing person.
Maybe Charlie1 is in the middle.
Maybe all the rest are base tone hearing persons?

overtone hearing persons use their right brain half for hearing
base tone hearing persons use their left brain half for hearing

I think there was a study done some years ago and they listed certain audio industry brand names and the preference in one or the other group.
There is a test about what kind of hearing person you are at:
https://www.musicandbrain.de/kurztest.html
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Re: European power strip

Post by jewa »

Results: Sie sind ein extremer Obertonhörer. (You are an extreme overtone listener.) Don’t know if it is good or bad.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Spannko »

Brilliant! Discovering that I’m an extreme overtone listener has been a bit of a Eureka moment! So, thanks for posting, defender.

It appears that because even a single note played on an instrument is really a complex chord, or a harmonious combination of base tone and overtones or harmonics which will have been tuned by the Luthier, it’s possible to hear just one note when played through a HiFi and know if it still sounds harmonious - but only if one is an overtone listener.

I’ve been listening to and buying equipment since the 1970’s. At that time I didn’t know about “Tune Dem” or “PRaT”, but I did know if something sounded “incoherent” (as I called it at the time). I remember going for a dem of an A&R Cambridge A60e and afterwards the salesperson played me his favourite amp. I told him I preferred the A60 because it sounded more “coherent”. He had no idea what I was talking about and I couldn’t explain any more other than his favourite amp sounded “wrong” and that it had nothing to do with bass quality, clarity, soundstage, detail etc. He was most unimpressed and just walked away to serve someone else!

The next time I had a similar experience was when I was looking for a new pair of speakers in the early 80’s. Everything sounded awful until the dealer suggested I listen to an LP12. You can guess the outcome!

I think this explains why some people “get” the tune dem thing, and others don’t. However, I’m now thinking that the key to a good HiFi isn’t “Tune”, but rather “Harmony” - this makes much more sense to me because it enables me to understand things like ThomasOK’s plinth tapping experiments, the design of the Klangedangs, etc. That is, they both demonstrate what I’ve previously thought of as “inner congruency” or from now on, a harmonious resonance which sounds pleasing to the listener, which also happens to sound more “in tune”.
Last edited by Spannko on 2018-11-16 21:08, edited 1 time in total.
tokenbrit
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Re: European power strip

Post by tokenbrit »

jewa wrote: 2018-11-16 10:13 Results: Sie sind ein extremer Obertonhörer. (You are an extreme overtone listener.) Don’t know if it is good or bad.
Ich bin ein leichter Obertonhörer. Doesn't sound right - I'd much rather listen to this than this ;)
Defender
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Re: European power strip

Post by Defender »

jewa wrote: 2018-11-16 10:13 Results: Sie sind ein extremer Obertonhörer. (You are an extreme overtone listener.) Don’t know if it is good or bad.
it is neither good or bad its just how you/we hear and perceive music. but it might help to understand why we hear things differently and why only you can decide what you like.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Defender »

Spannko wrote: 2018-11-16 15:39 Brilliant! Discovering that I’m an overtone listener has been a bit of a Eureka moment! So, thanks for posting, defender.
I am happy I could help.

I think power supply and power cables have a big impact (small change but big impact)on this topic. I feel it shifts „harmonics“ or tunes. Would like to see if that would be visible on a decent spectrum analyzer.

Played with power cables the last weeks and finally ended up with a gem. Its a Longwell-P 2011 with text but only 0.75mm2 and a straight plug. Yes its a tad overblown in the bass region but it makes voices come out so emotional and cures one thing I never could solve before. S tones and F tones always created a ringing in my ear because they never sounded „right“ to me. Thats gone now ;) and with it goin came the tune ;)
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Re: European power strip

Post by Spannko »

Defender wrote: 2018-11-16 18:51 I think power supply and power cables have a big impact (small change but big impact)on this topic. I feel it shifts „harmonics“ or tunes.
Yes, I agree. I think it ties in with the “musical unpleasantness” thread too.

Maybe we should start saying “It’s all about musical pleasantness”!
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Re: European power strip

Post by ThomasOK »

tokenbrit wrote: 2018-11-16 17:22
jewa wrote: 2018-11-16 10:13 Results: Sie sind ein extremer Obertonhörer. (You are an extreme overtone listener.) Don’t know if it is good or bad.
Ich bin ein leichter Obertonhörer. Doesn't sound right - I'd much rather listen to this than this ;)
I also received the answer: "You are an extreme overtone listener."

But I find The Overtones clip above has distorted overtones, quality not quantity. So I like The Undertones better too!
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Re: European power strip

Post by David Neel »

Defender wrote: 2018-11-14 18:56 There is a test about what kind of hearing person you are at:
https://www.musicandbrain.de/kurztest.html
So I can link to this and listen to some beeps. I'm missing something, how do I know what they mean? Being a monolingual Brit I'm at a loss here.

I listen to the beeps and it then tells me I'm a light overtone listener?? How, why??
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Re: European power strip

Post by ThomasOK »

Apparently it is based on how you relate the two tones to each other, whether one or the other sounds higher in tone to you. But I would be interested in knowing more of the research behind it too. And I don't read German so I'm limited there.
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Re: European power strip

Post by David Neel »

Ah, I think I've got it - so the buttons below are the voting buttons. Now I'm ausgeglichener Hörtyp or Grundtonhörer.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Defender »

David Neel wrote: 2018-11-16 21:34 Ah, I think I've got it - so the buttons below are the voting buttons. Now I'm ausgeglichener Hörtyp or Grundtonhörer.
yes if the fist tone is lower for you than the second one you click left if you perceive it the other way around you click right
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Re: European power strip

Post by David Neel »

Defender wrote: 2018-11-16 21:37
David Neel wrote: 2018-11-16 21:34 Ah, I think I've got it - so the buttons below are the voting buttons. Now I'm ausgeglichener Hörtyp or Grundtonhörer.
yes if the fist tone is lower for you than the second one you click left if you perceive it the other way around you click right
Simple when you've got that..... doesn't change the fact that several were difficult to call, hence different results on two attempts.
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Re: European power strip

Post by tokenbrit »

If you click on the US flag, you get the test in English, sort of, and it just says pitch preference rather than higher/lower, or maybe I missed something... I'll ask 'die Frau' to read it wieder auf Deutsch, and see if I/we get different answers. Bitter warten...
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Re: European power strip

Post by tokenbrit »

tokenbrit wrote: 2018-11-16 22:36 If you click on the US flag, you get the test in English, sort of, and it just says pitch preference rather than higher/lower, or maybe I missed something... I'll ask 'die Frau' to read it wieder auf Deutsch, and see if I/we get different answers. Bitter warten...
So not really a question of language on the website except that -kennung != perception preference... There's no instructions in either language for the Kurztest, but there is a hint in the linked pdf, in German, a sentence in which translates to 'perceiving a falling or a rising sound direction'. This then matches the buttons so, as others have correctly stated above, you pick the button that indicates whether you hear the second as higher or lower than the first of two complex tones. My result is now that I am not slight or extreme; just your regular Obertonhörer. I'll have to continue reading/translating the pdf for more insight.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

I tried a few times and got the following:
1. Sie sind ein leichter Grundtonhörer.
2. Sie sind ein Grundtonhörer
3. Sie sind ein Grundtonhörer
4. Sie sind ein Grundtonhörer

What do they mean though? I tried an online translator but it didn't clarify anything.

I've thought for a while now that people experience music slightly differently so this is very interesting as it might feed into that.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Funny for me to read this tread again after so long. I was really passionate about my answers at the time! :-)
I am more relaxed about it all now and not really interested in trying to “force” my view on anyone anymore.

The test is interesting but for me also easy to dissect. Each tone in the test pairs are constructed so that you can hear two opposite movements going from the one tone to the other. It is all about what you focus on in each tone (which group of frequencies you focus on).

I can change my focus and deliberately get any result I want in the test.

I do however not think that this has much to do with the former discussion in this tread but the test is interesting none the less.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Defender »

I agree that my post somehow shifted the main topic of the discussion. That was not my intention. I just wanted to make us aware that there are different perceptions of music.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Defender wrote: 2018-11-17 11:45 I agree that my post somehow shifted the main topic of the discussion. That was not my intention. I just wanted to make us aware that there are different perceptions of music.
And it is always interesting to try to understand our perception of music better.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Spannko »

Charlie1 wrote: 2018-11-17 10:13 I tried a few times and got the following:
1. Sie sind ein leichter Grundtonhörer.
2. Sie sind ein Grundtonhörer
3. Sie sind ein Grundtonhörer
4. Sie sind ein Grundtonhörer

What do they mean though? I tried an online translator but it didn't clarify anything.

I've thought for a while now that people experience music slightly differently so this is very interesting as it might feed into that.
I think it means that you’re more neuro typical (a “normal” person, in plain English!), whereas us overtone listeners are more likely to possess the neural bio markers for dyslexia, ADHD or ADD.

As for possessing any special musical abilities: “The relative pitch of harmonic complex sounds, such as instrumental sounds, may be perceived by decoding either the fundamental pitch (f0) or the spectral pitch (fSP) of the stimuli. We classified a large cohort of 420 subjects including symphony orchestra musicians to be either f0 or fSP listeners, depending on the dominant perceptual mode. In a subgroup of 87 subjects, MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) and magnetoencephalography studies demonstrated a strong neural basis for both types of pitch perception irrespective of musical aptitude”.
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Re: European power strip

Post by ThomasOK »

Oh wow! Charlie1 is a normal person? No wonder we don't always hear things the same way! :-)

For anyone interested in exploring this in more depth, without having to read German, here is a link I found on the web with a basic explanation and a flac of the tones:

http://www.galaxyclassics.com/index.php ... 0-overtone

Note that if you click on the highlighted word study in the first sentence you will be taken to a pdf of the original study with all the details and references.
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Re: European power strip

Post by beck »

Listening to the fourth pair of tones I think it will be possible for most people to hear both a step of 1 whole note down and also a jump of a fourth (four notes) up going from the first to the last note! The last note being the “same” note in both cases (though in different octaves) while the first changes from being higher in the first case to perceived lower(deeper) in the second mentioned case above.
Last edited by beck on 2018-11-17 17:24, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Charlie1 »

ThomasOK wrote: 2018-11-17 16:46 Oh wow! Charlie1 is a normal person? No wonder we don't always hear things the same way! :-)
I don't feel very normal :)

Thanks for the link.

I wish I understood half of what is written about this. I probably should have paid more attention in music class at school.

Thanks beck and Spannko too.
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Re: European power strip

Post by Spannko »

As a follow up to the under/over tone test defender posted, here’s a video about perfect pitch I found really interesting, particularly the second part where he talks about helping our children to develop perfect pitch.

https://youtu.be/816VLQNdPMM
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Re: European power strip

Post by Defender »

interesting video - we can be lucky that we dont need that capabilities to enjoy music but maybe it would help on one or the other decision we make for our music system
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