Lejonklou cd-player ?

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Rutger
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Lejonklou cd-player ?

Post by Rutger »

It would be very interresting with a Lejonklou Cd-player at an affordable price. Do you have any upgrades/mods. to ordinary Cd/DVD-players, making them better "tunedem" ?
How about a masterclock modifikation?
What´s your opinion about that ?
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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for your suggestion, Rutger!

There are no immediate plans but this has been discussed and I have a cooperation with several people who are good at digital systems. I am mostly into the analogue world and I believe one needs both perspectives to get good results. Even when just making a clock circuit.

I have no specific mods to ordinary CD/DVD players and have never tried any of the masterclock upgrade kits that are out there. I have experimented a little with CD clock circuits, so I am convinced this part plays an important role, though. As usual, the end result depends on whether the designers have a Tune Method perspective or not.

As I see it, the main contestant to any reasonably priced CD player project today is a second hand Ikemi. The Ikemi both sounds great, has a very impressive transport/drawer (that you won't find on anything cheaper than a Unidisk 2.1 today!) and is supported by Linn in terms of service. That is a tough nut to crack and I am allergic to some nuts. :wink:

But I love challenges. If you have any specific suggestions, I'd be happy to hear about them.
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Post by doze84 »

Since cd-players, are on it's way out, at least the phiscal part of the tech. Wouldn't it be supa cool if you could get a beresford dac or something, (has a reputation of very good tune dem) and just make it better better(before you have made your totallt own product). Many parts are already switchable on the beresford circuit, the chip and the op amp or what ever the parts are called. By that you could very fast get on to an ok level. A berseford 7210 is bought for 2000kr incl deliviry to sweden. The best thing about the dac is that it has little dealay once it has picked the correct clock frequency. (the naim dac has a 2sec delay i think?)

I'm just so eger to see the first Lejonklou source out there, it would just do so much good to the market, and it would get us poor people a better system!
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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for the tip, doze84! I haven't heard any Beresford DAC's and I agree that in many situations, a good DAC can be useful. I doubt that the USB/SPDIF chips can ever come close to a network based solution, though. The former will always be dependent on the clock of the incoming signal.

But as a DAC has a broad range of possible applications, the quest of minimising the sensitivity to the incoming clock is interesting. I've read and though a bit about that, but no Eureka moments so far. :wink:

An ethernet based product feels like the right way to do it, but turning those ideas into a product with everything working perfectly is a long and winding road. We'll see what happens!
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Post by vicdiaz »

What about a Lejonklou Digital Streamer??? :mrgreen:
Vic
Ivor's "Tune-Method Seminar" Alumni
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Post by lejonklou »

What I meant by "an ethernet based product" in the above was a digital streamer.
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Post by monkeydevil »

Couldn't you make a little device to connect at dvd player or media extender (Tvix, Poipcorn Hour etc) to the ds?

Could have digital/electrical input and hdmi, and ethernet output to ds together with hdmi output to make the signals in sync. Maybe a sort of switch as well, with ethernet input to connect the NAS as well to avoid having to switch ethernet cables.

This could be a big seller! :D
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Post by doze84 »

The Beresford uses some sort of clock technique where it uses the first half second of the first song, every time you switch transporter, to calculate the clock speed.

Of course Wifi streamers are the best(in getting all the bits), but then we've got the UI and everything around that, and in adition one can't really watch movies with that delay(unless óne delay the picture as well, or make a movie streamer(but then comes the UI again, and the licenses for codecs?)

As you say with a dac comes a variety of possibilities
I like the idea of being able upgrade the use of a blueray or a dvdplayer.. and still be able to use the sound card of your pc, and all the realtime stuff that one could want to do. And to have multiple ins.

If I'm right dacs do have jitter problems(syncproblems) with the clock also over USB, but what about external soundcards, do they also suffer from clockproblems?

What about a Lejonklou mod to squeezebox to begin with??
I think I've seen other companies making mods of sqeeze boxes..

(another fun thing, is that the bluetooth transfer speed with the EDR, has reached to the level where one can transfer flac-files, nobody has yet done that but one company has sold a hifi-unit for home systems called the GEM for mp3,aac (i think the bluetooth protocol is bit-safe, but its' probably only smartphones that can transfer flac files.)
Sherwood now sells a bluetooth extention to their receivers.. still only for mp3 though. But i guess it's a nice feeling to be able to come home and be able to stream music from the phone right away. And it can't be complicated to get one work for flac, the good thing is, noo User interface or softwareprogramming(except the decoding scripts:)
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Post by lejonklou »

mokeydevil: Don't you think Linn will enter the streaming video scene? I suspect they're working hard on that. Therefore I'm not sure how much time to devote to what you suggest. It would be a complicated project!

doze84: There's jitter everywhere, because no clocks are perfect. But if you have the conversion at one place and the clock at another, the problems will increase. And this is the case both with USB and external soundcards.

The problem with modifying products made by others is that in order to really improve it, you have to understand it very well. And to understand it well, you need to spend a lot of time with it. Simply replacing components rarely works. To sound really good, the circuit needs to be in balance.
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Post by doze84 »

Ok thanks a lot for the info, I like spitting out ideas, but unfortunately, i know very little about the implement when it comes to electronical components .

Its going to be interesting to follow the naim dac reports, and also if someone could get a closer look on the beresfords. I don't know if there's anything innovative on how beresford solves the clock problems or not, maybe it's just the good use of the rest of the components. It's the first dac I've heard about outperforming genki. But who knows, maybe the laser was old on the genki.

Since this is a wishing tread, for new products from Lejonklou company, I might just continue, hope I'm not, bugging you with stupid asks.

My next question is...
What is keeping you from making an amplifier(slutsteg) that doesn't hold active cards(to start with), while we are waiting for the source?

And if you have plans for it, could you do one for the broad consumer market <3k sek(with cheaper components), and one for the high end market <10k sek?
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Post by lejonklou »

Thanks for the additional tips, doze84!

I'm working on power amps. Tough decisions between cost, size, power and performance. I don't mind releasing a power amp with limited power, small in size and to a low cost. But it has to be musically involving, that's where I can't compromise.

I'd also like a mega strong power amp, which by necessity will cost a lot more. But it has to be competitive against the other more expensive power amps out there.

When I'm really happy with something, rest assured I'll let you know!
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Post by doze84 »

USB2 Audiointerface. EMU släpper en ny, väldigt limiterad version av sitt populära 0404 USB-interface..... Med sin vita design passar den oerhört bra bredvid Apples datorer!....

USB-baserat ljud- kort för både PC och Mac med oöverträffade tekniska prestanda; 24- bit/192kHz AD/DA-konvertrar, kristallklara mikrofonförstärkare samt en jitterfri intern klocka för högsta möjliga ljudåtergivning.

................

USB2 Audio Interface. EMU release of a new, very limited edition of its popular 0404 USB interface ..... With it's white design fits extremely well next to Apple computers !....

USB-based audio cards for both PCs and Macs with unsurpassed technical performance; 24 - bit/192kHz AD / DA converters, crystal-clear microphone amplifier and a jitterfree internal clock [/ u] for the highest possible fidelity.

Have they solved the clock problems for this external soundcard?
Or does it just refer to the jitter free process AFTER.. the jittery tranfer from computer to clock in soundcard.
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Post by lejonklou »

"Jitterfree clock" is a popular expression, not a fact. :) There is no way to eliminate jitter completely.

A sound card will play what it's being feb, in this case through the USB. So it's ultimately the incoming USB clock that will control the DA conversion. Therefore the system is compromised from the start if the goal is perfect fidelity. To my knowledge, there is no way of eliminating that problem except making the DA converter request the data when it needs it. Which rules out USB.
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Post by Linntek »

This is written by John Swenson. He seems to know what he's doing.
It explains the USB problem

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaud ... /7719.html
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Post by doze84 »

lejonklou wrote:"Jitterfree clock" is a popular expression, not a fact. :) There is no way to eliminate jitter completely.

A sound card will play what it's being feb, in this case through the USB. So it's ultimately the incoming USB clock that will control the DA conversion. Therefore the system is compromised from the start if the goal is perfect fidelity. To my knowledge, there is no way of eliminating that problem except making the DA converter request the data when it needs it. Which rules out USB.
Someone wrote at selleri that kinos togeather with a squeeze box3 digitaly connected, is performing considerable better than a Majik CD analog.

Doesn't it say that the new networktranporters are very exact??
and that dac can still reach new levels??

Wouldnit it be possible for you to do the same, in a smaller package, over a weekend?,
as a lower cost competitor to sneaky ds..
You know just for fun, till you have released your networkplayer..
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Post by lejonklou »

doze84 wrote:Wouldnit it be possible for you to do the same, in a smaller package, over a weekend?
Weekend project, sounds good! :lol:

Unfortunately the release of a new product is a process that requires lots of time and money. There are so many details and all sorts of testing and documentation to take care of. Then all of a sudden, a component can prove unreliable or go out of production and an alternative has to be found. Just getting the enclosure right, with drillings, fasteners, feet and everything is a real challenge.

This makes it really critical to choose which projects to release and which to leave on the shelf.

Regarding Squeezebox to DAC, I haven't made the exact comparison you mention but have some doubts about the reported outcome. I've tried Squeezeboxes connected to DA's, for example Kisto. The result is good soundwise, but something is missing musically. The SB character seems to show through, no matter what DA is used.
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Post by doze84 »

lejonklou wrote:
doze84 wrote:Wouldnit it be possible for you to do the same, in a smaller package, over a weekend?
Weekend project, sounds good! :lol:

Unfortunately the release of a new product is a process that requires lots of time and money. There are so many details and all sorts of testing and documentation to take care of. Then all of a sudden, a component can prove unreliable or go out of production and an alternative has to be found. Just getting the enclosure right, with drillings, fasteners, feet and everything is a real challenge.

This makes it really critical to choose which projects to release and which to leave on the shelf.

Regarding Squeezebox to DAC, I haven't made the exact comparison you mention but have some doubts about the reported outcome. I've tried Squeezeboxes connected to DA's, for example Kisto. The result is good soundwise, but something is missing musically. The SB character seems to show through, no matter what DA is used.
Too bad:D I'd hoped it was just soldering a dac cuircit inside of a kinki, cut the input, and se how it sounds. Then make some adjustments:) haha but what do I know..
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Post by lejonklou »

If we exclude the process of creating a commercial product, I'm still not able to make anything that sounds good in a really short time. Maybe someone else can, but I can't. It always takes a lot of time.

A long time ago, when I first met Bill Miller (chief electronics designer at Linn), I asked him what the secret was behind their products. He replied "There are no secrets". At the time I thought it was a lame answer. I thought he just didn't want to tell me.

Many years later, I realised what he meant. The good performance of a HiFi product is never the result of a few important parts (the ones I suspected were "secrets"). It's like a web made with all the components, which needs to be tuned so that it's in balance. And therefore it takes a lot of time from when the original idea is put together to when it starts sounding decent.

The challenge with this, to me at least, is knowing 1) When to stop, because the idea doesn't show enough promise, and 2) When to stop and realise that this is as good as it can currently get, the product is ready for the commercial market.

This balance in a product is also something that makes it very difficult to improve a product that isn't my own, that I don't fully understand. Exchanging just a few "cheap" components for some higher grade alternatives can really mess up the performance completely, by bringing the product out of balance.
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Post by Tony Tune-age »

lejonklou wrote:If we exclude the process of creating a commercial product, I'm still not able to make anything that sounds good in a really short time. Maybe someone else can, but I can't. It always takes a lot of time.

Exchanging just a few "cheap" components for some higher grade alternatives can really mess up the performance completely, by bringing the product out of balance.
Certainly sounds logical... :!:
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Post by doze84 »

Has this been up before? Using usb in async mode.. sounds like some sort of streaming with less bit problems?

But the question probably is if the conversion is done in the dac or in the computer..

could this be used to make a lejonklou dac with less jitter?

Rashumon wrote in linn forum:
"Not quite, the benefit of using asynch USB protocol for connecting a computer to a DAC is that the DAC sets the master clock and pulls the data out of the computer asynchronously as required. DACs using synchronous connections to the data source require complex and often tricky synchronisation between devices. This is never perfect and therefore results in lost data or jitter. Anything that uses spdif or toslink is synchronous I think.
There are not a lot of DACs out there that support the more modern asynch protocol.
I don't know how USB asynch compared with a Linn DS but I'm sure it's better than something like Sonos etc. The only area where the Linn DS might be better is the quality of the components , especially the analog parts and the power supply and a potentially cleaner design of the circuitry.
Though ultimately, I tend to believe that a computer setup, using high end software to drive the streaming and good quality cabling to a really good asynch DAC will be very competitive and far cheaper. "

The prduct discussed is the "HRT Music Streamer".
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Post by Music Lover »

doze84, you find similar discussions on many hifi forums; a lot of speculations, few listening tests, focus mainly on technology with less on implementation.
This together with the overall consensus that managing the digital signal is "not an issue" as everything in the digital domain is just about calculation.

= not that useful information imho


Asynchronous USB - google and ended up on mostly high End DAC producers claiming this is the real deal.
http://www.usbdacs.com/Concept/Concept.html
Have to report I'm sceptical, even if the concept have some advantages!

For me the DS concept (ethernet steraming) is rather elegant and the logical way forward.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Post by lejonklou »

Asynchronous USB sounds interesting. I've read what Gordon at Wavelength has written about how they developed their solution. My guess is that the Naim DAC uses something similar, but I haven't heard much about it.

When you've gained control of the clock, the challenge becomes making something that sounds good. That's another story and as ML said there's a lot of speculation out there. Some people tend to see one problem and dream of one fix, but there's always been more to it than that.

Why is USB interesting, by the way? Is it for it's direct connectability to computers, without having to deal with networks? Would you like to be able to connect a USB memory stick? Would it still be interesting if the sound quality varies considerably with what you connect your DAC to?

What are the advantages that you mention, ML?
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Post by doze84 »

lejonklou wrote:Asynchronous USB sounds interesting. I've read what Gordon at Wavelength has written about how they developed their solution. My guess is that the Naim DAC uses something similar, but I haven't heard much about it.

When you've gained control of the clock, the challenge becomes making something that sounds good. That's another story and as ML said there's a lot of speculation out there. Some people tend to see one problem and dream of one fix, but there's always been more to it than that.

Why is USB interesting, by the way? Is it for it's direct connectability to computers, without having to deal with networks? Would you like to be able to connect a USB memory stick? Would it still be interesting if the sound quality varies considerably with what you connect your DAC to?

What are the advantages that you mention, ML?
Yes i get the part that the implementation is very important to the end result, that's why I wouldn't' buy a wavelength or HRT dac. I would like to try one though.

It's to be able to use it as a soundcard, for music, spotify, video, youtube etc without delay.

The naim dac uses buffers in the normal spdif signal, there's no script involved. (or did you mean by the usb?)
Asynchronous usb, seem to be some sort of data code that' by my guess includes some file transfer protocol or something, to get the bits over to the other side more safely..

A normal spdif lejonklou dac would be of much interest if it's very cheap, you know to bring an alternativ to all the crappy spdif dacs on the market, to lift the dvd player or your parents livingroom stereo.. But I guess it would be very limited in performance, and maybe not too interesting to linnists.

But otheriwise my suggestion was just to get you past all the userinterface implementations that comes with a networkplayer(to be able to bring us a product faster:D

And i guess many normal hifi enthusiasts in the hifi age of 20-30 be able just to hook it up to you computer and run, instead of buying a crappy dac magic.. Almost every normal 20-30year old i know(and that's many), play music from their computer by spotify/youtube- soundcard - computerspeakers/homecinema eqipment. they are not ready to buy an iphone and a nas together with the networkplayer that they can't afford:)
To get asynchronous dac from 1000-3000sek, here would be just percfect, atleast for the more technical interested ppl, the other one's we'll just have to force buy one:)(and i promise i will)
But ofcourse If you could come up with an alternativ to the squeezebox that would be great too.(but that would take away, the spotify, video, youtube, game, soundcard-capabilibtes that a asynchronous dac has, and to compete with their user interface, is prob not that easy)

But I guess you're aiming more at the high end market, and that might be different people.
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Post by Music Lover »

doze84 wrote:And i guess many normal hifi enthusiasts in the hifi age of 20-30 be able just to hook it up to you computer and run, instead of buying a crappy dac magic.. Almost every normal 20-30year old i know(and that's many), play music from their computer by spotify/youtube- soundcard - computerspeakers/homecinema eqipment. they are not ready to buy an iphone and a nas together with the networkplayer that they can't afford:).
No NAS is required for using a DS. So the NAS is out of the equation.

And as they obviously use the PC to control the music today, they can use it controlling the DS as well. So the iPhone is out as well...

And as you can just drag&drop an URL into the KinskyDesktop, all the music you can play using a PC, you can play using a DS as well.

If I understood it correctly, the ONLY item left is the cost.

But video is a real issue!
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Post by lejonklou »

So the advantage you saw with a USB DAC, then, ML - did you mean cost or synching with video?

Will you be able to get perfect lip synch with an asynchronous USB DAC? Where and how large will the glitches (timing errors) be if the computer clock running the video is slightly off from the clock in the DAC? Would you need a specific driver to ensure the timing? I haven't read anything about that yet, does anyone have information about it?

Regarding my aim, I'm not focused on any particular market. Everything that I personally think is good enough to really enjoy music is of interest. It just needs to be possible to manufacture with enough precision to make performance consistent and to a cost that isn't prohibitive.
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