Kikkin 2

Tony Tune-age · Post by **Tony Tune-age** » 2010-03-17 17:53

lejonklou wrote:At the moment I don't have the time to translate the entire article.

I did translate their final conclusion and put it under News at the website.

The final conclusion is fine, but I can't find the "link or thread" you're mentioning above...where should I look :?:

Tony Tune-age · Post by **Tony Tune-age** » 2010-03-17 17:57

Tony Tune-age wrote:
lejonklou wrote:At the moment I don't have the time to translate the entire article.

I did translate their final conclusion and put it under News at the website.
The final conclusion is fine, but I can't find the "link or thread" you're mentioning above...where should I look :?:

I finally found the proper page and article, thanks Lejonklou... 8)

Tony Tune-age · Post by **Tony Tune-age** » 2010-03-17 20:13

trumpeten wrote:Just read the review in Hifi&Musik as well, good publicity!

Nice write-up and good article... :!:

doze84 · Post by **doze84** » 2010-03-30 12:01

Can a Kikkin I, be destroyed if you disconnect and reconnect the interconnects to the amplifier, with the amplifier and the kikkin kept on?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-03-30 23:32

No, there won't be any harm to the Kikkin. But it's important to understand what happens. To do any "live" switching of interconnects, first make sure that all system components (source, Kikkin, power amps) are powered from the same mains block. All ground connections of the units involved should go through the power cords and meet at one point. This is a recipy both for good sound and for safe switching of cables (as described below).

If you connect and disconnect cables going to the inputs of Kikkin, there might be slight "thumps" in your loudspeakers. But these are proportional to your volume setting. So if you lower the volume or mute your Kikkin, you won't hear anything.

If you connect and disconnect the cables going from the outputs of Kikkin to your power amps, you're entering risky territory. Any signal on those cables will go straight to the power amps and to the speakers. If you touch the central pin of the interconnect going to the power amp, but not the ground barrel around it, you will get a very large hum: BZZZZ. Normally not dangerous, but certainly not safe.

David Neel · Post by **David Neel** » 2010-05-19 14:33

Since the original Kikkin was compared with the Akurate Kontrol, the Kikkin has become Kikkin 2, and the AK has been Dynamiked.

Has anybody compared these latest versions?

Tony Tune-age · Post by **Tony Tune-age** » 2010-05-19 16:41

David Neel wrote:Since the original Kikkin was compared with the Akurate Kontrol, the Kikkin has become Kikkin 2, and the AK has been Dynamiked.

Has anybody compared these latest versions?

That would be a good combination to compare... :!: No doubt somebody will conduct a review of Kikkin 2 and Dynamiked Akurate Kontrol 8) .

David Neel · Post by **David Neel** » 2010-05-22 23:53

Anybody?

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2010-05-23 11:16

Yes, I have.

AK/D is better than Kikkin2. It wasn't like the AK/D made the Kikkin sound broken, but it had a calmness that made it clearly better. It was few weeks ago now, so I can't really comment on the difference more than that.

David Neel · Post by **David Neel** » 2010-05-23 12:18

Thanks Azazello - that's very helpful in setting my expectations. If I've read the reports correctly, then Kikkin/AK are about level, so Kikkin 2 should be better, and AK/D better still.

Hopefully I will get a chance to listen, but Kikkins are rather rare in the UK.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-05-23 12:27

Whilst it's possibly not the market Fredrik is interested in, I wonder if there is a market for a Super-Kikkin with KK1/D-like performance? Wonder what something like that would cost?

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-05-23 21:37

David Neel wrote:Hopefully I will get a chance to listen, but Kikkins are rather rare in the UK.

Cymbiosis has a black Kikkin 2. Not yet with the latest firmware (2.1), but this doesn't make a night and day difference to sound quality. So you should be able to judge its performance quite accurately.

What You See and Hear has the KINKI3 phono stage on demo. I can send them a Kikkin, if that helps you.

If you have another retailer which you prefer, you can always ask me to contact them. Or they can contact me. Shouldn't be a problem arranging a Kikkin demo!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-05-23 22:21

Cymbiosis are usually quite happy to home dem and ship kit out to potential buyers in the UK. Presume you have to pay return shipping costs if you don't keep it, but I think a Kikkin is only around £10 with Royal Mail. It would then be up to you to re-tune your speakers with the Kikkin in place, but at least you can take your time and evaluate in the comfort of your own home.

David Neel · Post by **David Neel** » 2010-05-25 22:35

Lejonklou, Charlie, thanks for the info about UK availablity. I have contact with a UK Kikkin user, and may be able to hear his, and I'm also happy to deal with Cymbiosis when I'm ready to spend. I was hoping to get a bit of advance info re Kikkin vs AK/D, or Exotik/D - the key for me is whether Kikkin will be good enough to counter the single input problem, as I have an LP12, Ikemi and Pekin.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-06-12 00:31

Please tell us if you reached any conclusions, David.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2010-08-18 00:09

David Neel wrote:Since the original Kikkin was compared with the Akurate Kontrol, the Kikkin has become Kikkin 2, and the AK has been Dynamiked.

Has anybody compared these latest versions?

Having recently gotten my first shipments of Lejonklou products I was able to do some comparisons with the Kikkin that I found quite interesting and should help with your question (better late than never :) ).

As I sold the store's demo AK to a customer including a Dynamik upgrade I was able to compare the Kikkin 2.1 to the AK before and after the Dyanmik upgrade. I have to say I was quite impressed with the Kikkin 2.1 as were others who work here. The Kikkin was clearly a bit more musical than the AK before the upgrade. It was easier to follow the music and the playing of the musicians was more together and more assured. It was clearer and more dynamic and just an all-round better preamp. Excellent performance for the money and just an all round really good sounding preamp.

Then I installed the Dynamik into the AK. This is where things really got interesting as I did comparisons several times over a week as the AK was burning in. On the first comparisons after the AK/D had warmed up and in the first day following I still found the Kikkin to be more musical but it was really close. I had to go back and forth several times to really nail down what I was hearing but I felt there was just a little better flow with the Kikkin, melodies were a touch easier to follow. After a couple more days it was even closer with me still slightly preferring the Kikkin but one of the other guys slightly preferring the AK/D. I still heard slightly better flow on the Kikkin and he heard a bit more clarity on certain instruments on the AK/D. After a few more days of burn-in the AK/D seemed to finally come into its own and I found it outperforming the Kikkin, but still not by much. I think the comment by Azazello pretty much nails it with the mention of calmness. The AK/D had a sense of ease to the way it presented the music that was just a bit more natural sounding than the Kikkin.

There were two things that were most interesting about these comparisons. First is just how good the Kikkin sounded - everyone who heard it was really impressed with the performance for the money, one commenting that "If he can do that for $1500 I'd like to hear what he could do for $6000!" He also felt the performance of the Kikkin and AK/D were so close it was hardly worth analyzing considering the price difference. Secondly, we were all amazed how similar the Kikkin and the AK/D sounded. Once burned-in they both had the same tonal balance and apparent levels of detail. While the AK/D was a touch more dynamic, which I think gave it that sense of ease, it wasn't by much. Everyone felt that not only were they close but they sounded so similar it was hard to believe these were different circuits driven by totally different power supply topologies!

My feeling is that the Kikkin 2.1 may be the ultimate demonstration of the validity of the Tune method of evaluation. It shows that when this method of evaluation is used by someone with trained ears and the ability to put their ideas into electronic form the result gives the same level of musical performance and satisfaction with essentially the same quality of sound. It is a surprising feat and a stunning one and my hat is off to Fredrik for being able to bring this kind of performance to market at all - doing it at this price is just outstanding. :mrgreen:

A final note is that I found using the novel volume level indicator became second nature almost instantly. It is quite cool to be able to tell at a glance about where the volume level is from across the room and once you get used to it it is hard to go back. It was particularly useful to find out where I was before setting down the stylus. Since it was in a room with several Linn and Arcam pieces, and since Linn units adjust volume in .5dB increments, the Lejonklou unit was often in a totally different range than it started out. I was glad to hit the volume button once (to activate the sleeping display) and find out that I was in RED territory BEFORE I set the stylus in the groove! And Keith really liked that the unit was dead black when playing music with the LED only coming to life when the volume was changed or the Kikkin was muted (as he tapes over the displays on all his Hi-Fi you can understand his appreciation of this feature). Now I want to know when Fredrik is coming out with a Klimax color volume indicator so I can have the best of both worlds!

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2010-08-18 15:40

Good report Thomas. Only heard the Kikkin2 briefly against a KK/1/D. Certainly asks some tough questions of the KK/1/D when you factor in the colossal price difference and what else that money could otherwise be invested in.

Tony Tune-age · Post by **Tony Tune-age** » 2010-08-19 13:04

Charlie1 wrote:Good report Thomas. Only heard the Kikkin2 briefly against a KK/1/D. Certainly asks some tough questions of the KK/1/D when you factor in the colossal price difference and what else that money could otherwise be invested in.

I agree, sounds like above average performance for very reasonable prices :!: As stated by Thomas, it would be interesting to see what type of preamplifier Lejonklou could create for $6,000.00 (U.S.). Perhaps the program settings wouldn't disappear when the power is disconnected

.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-08-21 01:37

Thanks for the review, Thomas!

Apart from sound quality, I'm glad to hear you like the colour volume indicator. When I first presented the idea to a couple of retailers, they were very sceptical. It was regarded as too radical and different. But once it was released, everyone who's used it have reported they find it very intuitive and most seem to prefer it to a number on a tiny display.

While it appears simple, there was actually a lot of work involved in getting it to respond in a way that felt fluid and natural. There are many timing parameters on those feedback chains, like "press button - volume blinks to confirm and raises one step, then fades out". While the original idea was mine, I owe thanks to the early customers who kindly reported to me their impressions of using it.

I've also had great response on the addition of a dual mute function (-10 steps and full mute) that appeared in version 2.1. The idea to implement that came to me one night when I watched TV and became irritated with how the commercial breaks would enter at a higher volume than the movie I was watching. I would lower the volume around 10 dB in order not to wake the family up and thought "this should really be a single button press". Then I realised it would probably be used for other reasons as well, when you temporarily want to lower the volume, but don't really need the more brutal full mute.

PerFlemming · Post by **PerFlemming** » 2010-08-27 19:02

Very interesting, seem as Kikkin is a tempting alternative solution, facing the one input issue - May I ask which poweramp have been used in above comparison ?

I have been thinking a Klout might be a good match with Kikkin - will see

Regards
Per

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2010-08-27 22:17

PerFlemming wrote:Very interesting, seem as Kikkin is a tempting alternative solution, facing the one input issue - May I ask which poweramp have been used in above comparison ?

I have been thinking a Klout might be a good match with Kikkin - will see

Regards
Per

In my comparisons I used Klimax Solo and Akurate 2200 power amps. I expect the Kikkin would sound great driving a Klout.

psmith · Post by **psmith** » 2010-09-24 23:44

Does a new Kikkin 2 need time to run in? I was expecting it to match an Akurate Kontrol, according to several comments around here. Frankly, it doesn't. If it does need to run in, how long should it take, and will it run in just by being switched on, or does it need to be working a real signal? Thanks for any help and insights.

psmith

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-09-26 01:14

Hi psmith!

I'm sorry to hear the Kikkin didn't match your expectations. A full refund is of course available if you want to return it.

Regarding burn in, I find that with most electronics, it can "soften the rough edges" of the performance slightly. Leaving it switched on without signal is usually enough. But I wouldn't expect any big differences from this, as it doesn't fundamentally alter the sound quality.

One thing that does affect the Kikkin quite noticeably is what it's standing on. Just like with other HiFi units, sources and preamplifiers in particular, I find this plays a bigger role than burning in. Ideal is that it's placed on a reasonably light and rigid shelf of its own.

psmith · Post by **psmith** » 2010-09-26 09:58

Thanks for the info Fredrik.

Let me make it clear that it sounds very good, and I am comparing it to a 4000 GBP preamp, i.e. one that is six times as expensive.

It's just that I have read several comments saying the Kikkin 2 is just as good as an Akurate Kontrol. In my system at the moment I would say that is nearly, but not quite true. The AK seems to have a little bit more detail. I'm letting the Kikkin run in and then I will compare again.

However you look at it, the Kikkin 2 is good value.

Having re-read the comments above I would say they give a very accurate description of the difference between Dynamikked Akurate Kontrol and Kikkin 2.

My system is in a studio with a large south-facing window, so the room is often very bright. The Akurate Kontrol display is absolutely useless in those conditions and I often worry that I am about to blow speakers because the music is about to start and I don't know what the volume level is. The Kikkin coloured LED is very bright and can be seen and understood from anywhere in the room, so it's far more effective than the terrible ergonomics of the Linn preamps volume interface.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2010-09-26 22:51

Thanks for the feedback and I'm glad to hear you like the volume indicator.

I won't personally comment on the absolute performance of Kikkin versus any other company's product, it's better to leave that to others. To be able to try it in your own system is one reason why you have 30 days to return it for a refund, when bought on the webshop. Although my experience is that burn-in effects seem to be nonexistent after 3-4 months, most of it happen in the first few weeks. So I'm confident you'll soon be able to make the right choice.

Whatever you choose, I hope your system will sound fantastic in that studio!