Tundra Mono 3

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Tundra Mono 3

Post by lejonklou »

The project of Tundra Mono 3 has been going on for a long time now, so I think it's time I give you an update on the progress and what's remaining.

First of all, there will be 50 new units made in the first batch. A lack of parts prevents me from making any more than 50 boards, but I'm working on sourcing them all. For a while I thought I had everything sorted, because the shortages used to be mainly semiconductors, which I have now stocked up on (and my intern Oscar has measured and selected them all). But now some parts that used to be available practically everywhere have suddenly disappeared. For instance, a simple resistor I'm using is out of stock in the particular value I'm using and won't be manufactured again until December 2023. I just bought 500 pcs, at a premium, from a Shenzhen parts dealer, but as they need to be measured and selected, I'll be able to use perhaps 50 of them.

After the first 50 units are made, I intend to make a batch of boards for upgrading older units. Most likely, both older Tundra Mono's and Tundra stereo's can be upgraded to a Tundra Mono 3. I just need to confirm that the fitting is perfect also in the oldest of cases, but currently I believe they all will be. I think it will be necessary for some sort of pre-booking of these upgrade kits, so that I know how many boards to make.

So what is new in Tundra Mono 3 compared to the previous version 2.2?
  • New output transistors with twice the current rating,
  • 8 new inductors in the power regulation - two of these are on special order from the manufacturer, who agreed to make me a precision one, as the standard version is +/-20%, which is far from ideal, and to measure and select them is difficult,
  • New capacitor type in feedback loop,
  • New components in the power supplies (same as in Boazu 1.3),
  • New chassis ground parts,
  • Higher printed circuit board quality - the same as is used in SINGularity and Källa, and
  • New circuit board layout with optimised high frequency coupling between layers.
What is remaining before production can begin? Only three things:
  • I have four new Thermal Interface Materials that need to be evaluated,
  • I have some new tantalum capacitor models that need to be tested, in the hope of finding something better than the old favourites, and
  • I need to wait for the high precision inductors that are on special order from the manufacturer.
I can't say exactly when the first pair of Tundra Mono 3 will ship, but will keep you updated.

What will it cost? I don't know yet for certain, but my guess is around 25% more than Tundra Mono 2.2.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote: 2022-11-07 01:21 The project of Tundra Mono 3 has been going on for a long time now, so I think it's time I give you an update on the progress...

I intend to make a batch of boards for upgrading older units. Most likely, both older Tundra Mono's and Tundra stereo's can be upgraded to a Tundra Mono 3. I just need to confirm that the fitting is perfect also in the oldest of cases, but currently I believe they all will be. I think it will be necessary for some sort of pre-booking of these upgrade kits, so that I know how many boards to make.

I can't say exactly when the first pair of Tundra Mono 3 will ship, but will keep you updated.

What will it cost? I don't know yet for certain, but my guess is around 25% more than Tundra Mono 2.2.
Thanks for the update on progress... I'm interested in pre-booking pending further updates, Mono 3 finalisation, & confirmation on the upgrade price.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by Hermann »

Thank you for the update. Extensive change as it looks.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by Gammaboy* »

Is the upgrade for the Tundra 2.2 on hold until more resister are produced beginning December of 2023?
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by lejonklou »

Gammaboy* wrote: 2022-11-07 15:15 Is the upgrade for the Tundra 2.2 on hold until more resister are produced beginning December of 2023?
No, I hope to make them much sooner than that.

The Dec 2023 date was just an example of how strange things are on the components front. Usually I’m able to source what I need anyway, it just requires a lot of searching and negotiating.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by Gammaboy* »

Thank you, and good luck!
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by willem kuis »

Lejonklou wrote:

"Most likely, both older Tundra Mono's and Tundra stereo's can be upgraded to a Tundra Mono 3"

Dear Fredrik, I own a Tundra Stereo 2.5 serial no 103.

I am very happy with it, especially since I added the utterly fantastic Källa 49 to the mix.
What a difference does Tundra Mono 3 make to the owners of a Tundra and Sagatun stereo?
Is this news and upgrade announcement in any way applicable to us (since I don't want to add more "black boxes" in our living room)?

Warm regards from The Netherlands
Källa 1.0 # Sagatun 1.7 # Tundra 2.5 # Spec RSA 901-EX # Harbeth Super HL5+XD # REL Strata III
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by lejonklou »

Gammaboy* wrote: 2022-11-07 16:18 Thank you, and good luck!
Thank you Gammaboy!
willem kuis wrote: 2022-11-07 18:27 Dear Fredrik, I own a Tundra Stereo 2.5 serial no 103.

I am very happy with it, especially since I added the utterly fantastic Källa 49 to the mix.
What a difference does Tundra Mono 3 make to the owners of a Tundra and Sagatun stereo?
Is this news and upgrade announcement in any way applicable to us (since I don't want to add more "black boxes" in our living room)?

Warm regards from The Netherlands
Hello Willem!

It makes me very happy to hear that you are so pleased with your Källa.

Regarding amplifiers, Tundra Mono 3 will be musically more involving and will sound bigger and better than you Tundra. But it will be one more black box, as you need two units.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by barrie »

Hi Fredrik

When do think your 1st batch ofTundra Mono 3’s will be
available also is the Kalla update still ‘on the table’?
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by macrotech2 »

This is fantastic and very exciting news Fredrik - thanks as always for all the amazing work you put into your products.
My setup sounds so consistently amazing that it's difficult to imagine it sounding even better!
Have you a rough idea on the proportion of new price that the upgrade will cost, and will the upgraded Mono 2.2 be identical to a 3 sonically?
I'm actually tempted just to order from the first batch of Mono 3s and sell on the 2.2s, otherwise I'm without music during the upgrade!
Källa/Sagatun Mono Tarandus/Tundra Mono 3/Avalon Idea Mk2
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by lejonklou »

barrie wrote: 2022-11-08 07:56 Hi Fredrik

When do think your 1st batch ofTundra Mono 3’s will be
available also is the Kalla update still ‘on the table’?
Hello Barrie!

I don't know exactly when Tundra Mono 3 will be available, but as mentioned it's getting close!

The Källa firmware update is uncertain, because after spending a LOT of time on a new one, version 1.0.16 is still the most musical (and for those with more than one Källa on the same network, there's 1.0.19). And I don't know when or if we'll be able to better it. Time will tell!
macrotech2 wrote: 2022-11-08 17:41 This is fantastic and very exciting news Fredrik - thanks as always for all the amazing work you put into your products.
My setup sounds so consistently amazing that it's difficult to imagine it sounding even better!
Have you a rough idea on the proportion of new price that the upgrade will cost, and will the upgraded Mono 2.2 be identical to a 3 sonically?
I'm actually tempted just to order from the first batch of Mono 3s and sell on the 2.2s, otherwise I'm without music during the upgrade!
So rewarding to hear that your system is consistently amazing, macrotech2!

It seems everyone with a Källa says the same thing - some of whom were previously "haunted" by constant variations in performance, wondering whether it was due to the electricity, their own mood or something else.

No, I don't yet have any idea about the upgrade cost, because the cost of building the circuit boards is the main unknown factor at the moment. They won't tell me until they've completed a batch, because there's always something new in my instructions for how they should be made. So when the first 50 units of TM3 start shipping, then I will find out about the upgrade price.

As most things are replaced inside an older Tundra (or Tundra Mono) when upgrading it to a TM3, I expect them to perform very similar.

There is, however, one detail on the case that has a small impact and it will favour new TM3's; the columns that support the main board and the power supplies used to be screwed in (using a specific torque, of course) and made of brass. On the new cases they are pressed in steel columns. The pressed in ones sound a little better but are impossible to retrofit.

Other than that detail, I can't think of any difference that has any impact on the music between a brand new TM3 and an upgraded one. New ones will have a grey logo on the front while an upgraded will keep the white one. New ones won't have any LIGHTS OFF switch at the rear, while the upgraded ones will keep theirs.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by ThomasOK »

Great news, Fredrik! Glad to hear it is getting close.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by lejonklou »

Time for an update!

The sudden move of my lab in late November interrupted the final tuning of Tundra Mono 3. The new capacitors were tested, the high precision inductors arrived from the manufacturer, but the Thermal Interface Material (TIM) tests still remain. These are a bit tricky and time consuming, because each TIM has its own optimal transistor-clamping torque and this needs to be found before comparing it to the next TIM. They also need to settle in properly, which means that comparisons are several days apart. Therefore I need to rely on recordings to judge which one is most musical. And these recordings need to be made in exactly the same way each time (e.g. the exact position in the room of the recording device) or they risk becoming misleading.

On top of that, my assembly company has had 50% of the workforce ill from various viruses since mid December, so they are lagging behind on several projects.

Something very positive came out of these delays, however. During the move of my lab and the two weeks that followed, when I was busy unpacking boxes, arranging the rooms and setting up shelves, I went over the circuit in my head again and again. And I came up with two "unknowns" - parameters that I didn't understand properly, and therefore haven't been able to optimise. After trying to figure them out theoretically, I finally decided to rig a practical test as soon as the listening room was done. And so I did. Rigging the test on Tundra Mono 3 prototype 00B took half a day and the listening a couple of minutes, it was a very simple comparison. As a result, the circuit was improved on two details. Nothing dramatic, just a little more intimacy in the music than before. I feel so pleased that those two unknowns hit me - they probably wouldn't have surfaced if I hadn't done all that manual labour.

Anyway, the circuit boards are now being manufactured. I'm going to visit the assemblers in a few days to go through a bunch of details and inspect the casework that has reportedly arrived. And then we'll proceed at the pace that is possible.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by tokenbrit »

That's a pretty good update* ;) Congratulations :)


* understatement :p
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by Charlie1 »

lejonklou wrote: 2023-01-11 16:27 I feel so pleased that those two unknowns hit me - they probably wouldn't have surfaced if I hadn't done all that manual labour.
Nice! :)
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by ThomasOK »

That's very cool that you figured ways to make it even better. Sorry to hear about the construction delays, I am really itching to hear a pair!
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by Matteo »

Great!

Any news on the new Kikkin?

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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by Hermann »

Thanks for the update. I find the way of your product development remarkable.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by springwood64 »

lejonklou wrote: 2023-01-11 16:27 I feel so pleased that those two unknowns hit me - they probably wouldn't have surfaced if I hadn't done all that manual labour.
This reminds me of something I have observed over the years: if I have problem that I have been unable to resolve, or a tricky choice, I find a walk seems to unlock the issue. When working from home in particular, I have been able to solve problems by walking in circles around my front drive. No idea what the neighbours think of me...
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by ThomasOK »

I believe that most innovations, whether in terms of products or ideas, are at least as much a result of intuition as they are of reason or logic. Certainly many of the things Fredrik and others have discovered about what is most musical in audio equipment has no "reason" for working, they just do. It may be one reason why some companies make equipment that is very well built and has electronic design that seems to be top level but they still don't sound very musical - too much reliance on logic and what should work rather than on feeling and intuition and what does work. Whereas other companies seem to make an array of musical products, often ones that are physically unrelated to each other. A number of well known inventors and mathematicians have stated that sometimes an idea would just drop into their lap, at times fully formed.

Intuition tends to visit us more fully when we are calm and relaxed. This is why constantly going over a problem in your head is often counterproductive. You need to let it rest at times so that intuition can filter through. Doing things unrelated to the ideas you are working on can clear the way for intuition to come to the fore.

From what I have seen, Fredrik definitely works on an intuitive level while combining that with the desire and willingness to test every possible variable he can think of. Some of his experiments, 40 different solders, 26 different lock washers, 23 different sets of feet, etc. are things that many of us would consider drudgery. Luckily for us Fredrik really enjoys doing it!

I find intuition sometimes works for me in little ways. When I am clocking a platter, starting by trying 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees and finding out which is best and which is second best, I then estimate where the best sound would be by the musical difference between those two positions. While I always do a lot of checking in very tiny increments, I hit on the exact right point right off the bat more often than could reasonably be chalked up to random luck. I wouldn't say it is as much as 50% but probably around 25%. Still I follow the saying "Trust but verify" as I can't mark the proper alignment until I'm sure.

Fredrik seems to me to work in a manner where he gets an idea and then ruthlessly checks every possible variable until he is satisfied with the result. Then we get a wonderful product!
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by Ianw »

Applies to many things in life.


For example, playing guitar I try to avoid too much repetition on particular techniques; you reach a peak on the best it will be that day, Further repetition drives down performance. Pick it up the next few days and the benefit is felt by the absorbing of the previous practice.

Overthinking can be counter productive “paralysis by analysis” as they say. The wisdom is learning when to stop; then carry on afresh later, we’ll that’s my approach FWIW.
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by TMV »

"It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer."
Albert Einstein

I don't know if this is true. I guess he was pretty smart, worked late evenings, took breaks, found new inspiration and worked late again!
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by Spannko »

ThomasOK wrote: 2023-01-12 18:14 I believe that most innovations, whether in terms of products or ideas, are at least as much a result of intuition as they are of reason or logic.
Don’t forget curiosity and luck! I’ve found my best discoveries have come about after being curious about something and trying it out. Most ideas come to nothing, but occasionally I get lucky and something works, or at least gives me an indication that it’s worth persuing. Strangely, over time I’ve noticed that the more curious I am and the more I experiment, the luckier I seem to get!
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by ThomasOK »

Spannko wrote: 2023-01-13 17:22
ThomasOK wrote: 2023-01-12 18:14 I believe that most innovations, whether in terms of products or ideas, are at least as much a result of intuition as they are of reason or logic.
Don’t forget curiosity and luck! I’ve found my best discoveries have come about after being curious about something and trying it out. Most ideas come to nothing, but occasionally I get lucky and something works, or at least gives me an indication that it’s worth persuing. Strangely, over time I’ve noticed that the more curious I am and the more I experiment, the luckier I seem to get!
I would agree. I would also say that your last line indicates that your intuition is guiding your curiosity, hence the improved luck. ;-)
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Re: Tundra Mono 3

Post by Spannko »

ThomasOK wrote: 2023-01-13 17:40
Spannko wrote: 2023-01-13 17:22
ThomasOK wrote: 2023-01-12 18:14 I believe that most innovations, whether in terms of products or ideas, are at least as much a result of intuition as they are of reason or logic.
Don’t forget curiosity and luck! I’ve found my best discoveries have come about after being curious about something and trying it out. Most ideas come to nothing, but occasionally I get lucky and something works, or at least gives me an indication that it’s worth persuing. Strangely, over time I’ve noticed that the more curious I am and the more I experiment, the luckier I seem to get!
I would agree. I would also say that your last line indicates that your intuition is guiding your curiosity, hence the improved luck. ;-)
I did wonder about that!
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