Amp and other upgrade options...

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snatex
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Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by snatex »

I am currently running an AV5125 with Bi-Aktiv cards for my Ninkas. My all Linn system (LP12/Uphorik,MDS,Kisto,2xAV5125,k400,Ninkas,Trikan,Unik) is used for both HT and music. Music is the priority but the system still needs to do both. There are pics and details on my system on the me and my system board.

I am also considering the following possible amp upgrades:

1) used c6100 Dynamik with Tri Aktiv Ninka cards

2) used Lejonklou Tundra stereo 2.2 (passive)

3) waiting until some used Solos or Monos hit the market (passive)

I'm guessing the newer Chakra/Dynamik c6100 should have a longer expected life than the AV5125. Do you think going from Bi-Aktiv to Tri-Aktiv plus adding Chakra/Dynamik will also sound significantly better than the current AV5215?

I have received opinions going both ways on Aktiv Ninkas vs Passive Ninkas with Solos or Lejonklou amps. The gist is Aktiv is more detailed and dynamic and that passive solos or Lejonklou amps are more musical. The "musical" nature of components is usually less obvious than the details and dynamics. I am both intrigued and fearful to spend the time and expense on upgrades to see which I prefer. Please share your thoughts on these issues.

Will the gain difference between the Tundra and the Linn amps cause any significant setup headaches in my HT setup or will I justy need to adjust the Ninkas up or the others down in the Kisto?

I know at some point my Kisto is going to die and I have no idea how I'm going to figure out my next move on preamp. I am currently running another surround processor with HDMI and new codecs above the Kisto and then running analog out by channel to the Kisto for HT content. For 2 channel all the sources go directly into the Kisto. I get twisted around when I try to think about how to setup a Sagutan in a mixed use system so that the subs work with both music and movies. I guess if you ran the front analog outs from the surround processor to the Sagutan and also ran both a pre out from the Saguan to the subs and the LFE from the processor to the subs it might work with both. Besides possible volume control hassles is there something else I'm missing?

Thanks for everyone's help and advice.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by Tendaberry »

I went from bi-amp active with 5125 on my Ninkas to tri-amp active with a C6100 without Dynamik. It was vastly better, like a new speaker. However, no doubt, passive with Solos would be even better (but also more expensive). I cannot comment on how the Tundra 2.2 would be.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by Discodave »

Snatex, how are you powering down the Kisto?
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by teatime »

snatex wrote: 2021-04-08 00:26 I am currently running an AV5125 with Bi-Aktiv cards for my Ninkas.
[...]
1) used c6100 Dynamik with Tri Aktiv Ninka cards
Unless I'm mistaken, the 6100 takes a different (newer, better) type of aktiv cards than the AV5125, so this update might be both more significant and more expensive than you expect.

I'm a fan of active amplification - of the three alternatives you list, this is the one I would go with. Every time I've heard lesser amps active vs better amps passive, the former has been my preference. Granted, I've never done this comparison with Solos. Or Tundras.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by snatex »

Discodave wrote: 2021-04-08 14:53 Snatex, how are you powering down the Kisto?
I believe it goes into standby mode when I press power on my remote or the front of the unit. The screen goes black but there is still a light around the power button on the front.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by snatex »

teatime wrote: 2021-04-08 16:33
snatex wrote: 2021-04-08 00:26 I am currently running an AV5125 with Bi-Aktiv cards for my Ninkas.
[...]
1) used c6100 Dynamik with Tri Aktiv Ninka cards
Unless I'm mistaken, the 6100 takes a different (newer, better) type of aktiv cards than the AV5125, so this update might be both more significant and more expensive than you expect.

I'm a fan of active amplification - of the three alternatives you list, this is the one I would go with. Every time I've heard lesser amps active vs better amps passive, the former has been my preference. Granted, I've never done this comparison with Solos. Or Tundras.
Yes. I'd be acquiring the 6100 with cards and selling my 5125 with cards as well.

Thanks for your input on Aktiv vs better amps passive. You said you never did this comparison with Klimax or Lejonklou amps? Did you compare Majik Aktiv to Akurate passive?
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by teatime »

snatex wrote: 2021-04-08 17:47 amps? Did you compare Majik Aktiv to Akurate passive?
Yes, I believe the comparison was 6100 passive against 4200 passive against 6100 active on Ninka. The passive comparison showed 4200 were clearly the better amp, but the best configuration by far was 6100 active. I can't recall if it was 2-way or 3-way active, it was 15 years ago.. but I did end up buying two C5100 (this was before the Majik/Akurate branding happened) and ran them active with Akurate 242 for several years.

Most similar comparisons I've heard have been on older Linn gear like LK100/140/280, Klout, AV5125. I'm sure it's possible for the passive alternative to be preferable, given sufficient performance difference between the amps, but personally I have yet to experience it. Active seems to usually be the more cost-effective option, at the very least. But then there are other factors like 2nd hand prices and availability to consider.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by Matteo »

teatime wrote: 2021-04-08 20:54 Yes, I believe the comparison was 6100 passive against 4200 passive against 6100 active on Ninka. The passive comparison showed 4200 were clearly the better amp, but the best configuration by far was 6100 active. I can't recall if it was 2-way or 3-way active, it was 15 years ago.. but I did end up buying two C5100 (this was before the Majik/Akurate branding happened) and ran them active with Akurate 242 for several years.

Most similar comparisons I've heard have been on older Linn gear like LK100/140/280, Klout, AV5125. I'm sure it's possible for the passive alternative to be preferable, given sufficient performance difference between the amps, but personally I have yet to experience it. Active seems to usually be the more cost-effective option, at the very least. But then there are other factors like 2nd hand prices and availability to consider.
Thanks for your informative post.

Since 2014, I'm running my (mod.)109s passive (with an A2200).

As I recently wrote in another thread, just before the pandemic, I did a demo at my dealer of M6100/Aktiv 109s vs. A2200/passive 109s.

The source was an ADSM/3 (which has 2 pre-out, so swapping between the 2 set-up was easy).

The results were mixed: at high volume levels, passive was more musical and cohesive, while at medium-to-low volume levels, Aktiv was clearly better (and passive sounded more compressed).

I rarely listen at high volume so (few days ago) I ordered an M6100 with cards :-) (not yet arrived).

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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by Charlie1 »

Hi snatex, just be aware that the order in which you install the cards makes a difference. I once felt that Ninkas with passive 6100 was more cohesive than aktiv. But advise followed on this site lead me to re-install the cards in a different order and then aktiv was always as good or better.

Also, Ninkas with bi-aktiv 4200/D is better than tri-aktiv 6100/D. Did that upgrade many years ago. Not massive improvement by any means but worthwhile based on second hand prices.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by mrco99 »

Matteo wrote: 2021-04-09 09:27 Since 2014, I'm running my (mod.)109s passive (with an A2200).

As I recently wrote in another thread, just before the pandemic, I did a demo at my dealer of M6100/Aktiv 109s vs. A2200/passive 109s.

The source was an ADSM/3 (which has 2 pre-out, so swapping between the 2 set-up was easy).

The results were mixed: at high volume levels, passive was more musical and cohesive, while at medium-to-low volume levels, Aktiv was clearly better (and passive sounded more compressed).

I rarely listen at high volume so (few days ago) I ordered an M6100 with cards :-) (not yet arrived).

M.
Hi Matteo!

You weren't curious to compare the Linn passive/active options against a Tundra stereo?

:-)

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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by Matteo »

Yes I was, but it was not easy to do

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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by dasher »

snatex wrote: 2021-04-08 17:14
Discodave wrote: 2021-04-08 14:53 Snatex, how are you powering down the Kisto?
I believe it goes into standby mode when I press power on my remote or the front of the unit. The screen goes black but there is still a light around the power button on the front.
This is an interesting question. I'm not sure why you have asked it, but I also have a Kisto as the pre amp top my whole system - a true system hub!

Mine started to exhibit an odd behaviour where the volume would dive to zero - often if I was switching out of a Dolby mode - but not necessarily totally confined to switching from Dolby. I used to switch of the power over night by just using the rear switch. I've recently (last four months or so) started thinking about the Kisto as if it was a computer. I wouldn't normally switch off computer without closing the systems down first. Now I switch the Kisto off at the handset, let it go into standby mode and then power down air the rear switch. Guess what? no strange issues with it all since adopting this process. I also expect mine to die one day - there is a spare sitting in loft.
Last edited by dasher on 2021-04-10 12:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by snatex »

dasher wrote: 2021-04-09 17:40
snatex wrote: 2021-04-08 17:14
Discodave wrote: 2021-04-08 14:53 Snatex, how are you powering down the Kisto?
I believe it goes into standby mode when I press power on my remote or the front of the unit. The screen goes black but there is still a light around the power button on the front.
This is an interesting question. I'm not sure why hyoid have asked it, but I also have a Kisto as the pre amp top my whole system - a true system hub!

Mine started to exhibit an odd behaviour where the volume would dive to zero - often if I was switching out of a Dolby mode - but not necessarily totally confined to switching from Dolby. I used to switch of the power over night by just using the rear switch. I've recently (last four months or so) started thinking about the Kisto as if it was a computer. I wouldn't normally switch off computer without closing the systems down first. Now I switch the Kisto off at the handset, let it go into standby mode and then power down air the rear switch. Guess what? no strange issues with it all since adopting this process. I also expect mine to die one day - there is a spare sitting in loft.
I never switch the power off on the back unless I fear a power outage/surge. My understanding is that full power ups and downs are the most taxing on a power supply.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by dasher »

I general I agree but with the Kisto, in my rack, I make an exception. My Kisto will get quite warm on standby - always has.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by Discodave »

dasher wrote: 2021-04-09 17:40
snatex wrote: 2021-04-08 17:14
Discodave wrote: 2021-04-08 14:53 Snatex, how are you powering down the Kisto?
I believe it goes into standby mode when I press power on my remote or the front of the unit. The screen goes black but there is still a light around the power button on the front.
This is an interesting question. I'm not sure why you have asked it, but I also have a Kisto as the pre amp top my whole system - a true system hub!

Mine started to exhibit an odd behaviour where the volume would dive to zero - often if I was switching out of a Dolby mode - but not necessarily totally confined to switching from Dolby. I used to switch of the power over night by just using the rear switch. I've recently (last four months or so) started thinking about the Kisto as if it was a computer. I wouldn't normally switch off computer without closing the systems down first. Now I switch the Kisto off at the handset, let it go into standby mode and then power down air the rear switch. Guess what? no strange issues with it all since adopting this process. I also expect mine to die one day - there is a spare sitting in loft.
Sorry for late reply to OP and this.

I have an excellent Kisto, sold to me by Chris at Hidden Systems. The previous owner traded it in but not before sending it back to Linn for a complete overhaul. Linn themselves confirmed this. Having had the 5103 and Kinos I was very aware of the heating/power issues with these AV pres. So yeah I was trying to even the odds in my favour. Ok there is the context.

With a Kisto please leave on standby. As OP says, and I was told by Linn the same, powering on and off with these machines can do the most mischief. Right now I have powered my Kisto off (and everything else) as I am cleaning window above. When I switch it back on IT WILL do that funny thing and stay at 0 volume. This is rectified by simply turning on and off again. Works perfectly. However, I do not wish to tempt fate so I always have it on standby and never powered down. I do have quite a large space above shelf to let heat disperse. I am confident this Kisto has many a year left in it. Or until I can afford a Satagun/Giella :) It truly is a fantastic pre-amp for the money (now as of a week ago feeding a Tundra 2.0!!!). I only use it for 2 channel stereo NOT AV so perhaps that puts more strain on it.
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by snatex »

Charlie1 wrote: 2021-04-09 09:55 Hi snatex, just be aware that the order in which you install the cards makes a difference. I once felt that Ninkas with passive 6100 was more cohesive than aktiv. But advise followed on this site lead me to re-install the cards in a different order and then aktiv was always as good or better.

Also, Ninkas with bi-aktiv 4200/D is better than tri-aktiv 6100/D. Did that upgrade many years ago. Not massive improvement by any means but worthwhile based on second hand prices.
The Ninka is a 2 way speaker so the 2 midbass drivers are identical. Do they play the same frequency range when going triactiv? In other words, are the crossovers splitting up frequency into Treble/Mid bass/Low bass or Treble/MidBass 1/Midbass2?
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by Charlie1 »

I assume they play the same frequency cos a single crossover card is feeding 2 drive units but I don't know for sure 🤔
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Re: Amp and other upgrade options...

Post by sunbeamgls »

snatex wrote: 2021-04-12 18:57
Charlie1 wrote: 2021-04-09 09:55 Hi snatex, just be aware that the order in which you install the cards makes a difference. I once felt that Ninkas with passive 6100 was more cohesive than aktiv. But advise followed on this site lead me to re-install the cards in a different order and then aktiv was always as good or better.

Also, Ninkas with bi-aktiv 4200/D is better than tri-aktiv 6100/D. Did that upgrade many years ago. Not massive improvement by any means but worthwhile based on second hand prices.
The Ninka is a 2 way speaker so the 2 midbass drivers are identical. Do they play the same frequency range when going triactiv? In other words, are the crossovers splitting up frequency into Treble/Mid bass/Low bass or Treble/MidBass 1/Midbass2?
Even in Exakt it looks like they get the same info. They share the same space inside the cabinet, so different signals would do weird stuff.
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