Boazu with Majik140

Conversations about Lejonklou Products and this Forum

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by lejonklou »

To state that the room is adding "massive manipulation" is a mistake. We are accustomed to listen in rooms. We speak with one another in rooms. We sing, play the guitar and beat on drums together in rooms. Nobody of their right mind thinks that's terrible and that we really should move outside or, better yet, to an anechoic chamber.
sunbeamgls
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 2012-04-04 15:19
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by sunbeamgls »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-15 21:36 To state that the room is adding "massive manipulation" is a mistake. We are accustomed to listen in rooms. We speak with one another in rooms. We sing, play the guitar and beat on drums together in rooms. Nobody of their right mind thinks that's terrible and that we really should move outside or, better yet, to an anechoic chamber.
I understand that you're happy to tolerate what the room does and that's fine as is your dislike of SPACE as a solution, but how else to describe room modes? They're adding much more distortion to the music than, for example, a Linn black compared to a Linn Silver. It also seems that giving the brain less "room compensation" effort will give it more capacity to deal with interpretation of the music.
Last edited by sunbeamgls on 2021-03-31 09:28, edited 1 time in total.
KSH/0; KEBox/2; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC fact.12. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by lejonklou »

The amount of distortion is of close to zero practical relevance. What kind of distortion is nearly all that matters. Some we can't stand, yet it's hardly measurable. Some we don't mind, yet it's massive.

If this wasn't the case, everyone would hate vinyl, all amplifiers would sound the same and the speakers and the room would be all that mattered. A lot of audiophiles argue this is the case. I say they're wrong.
sunbeamgls
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 2012-04-04 15:19
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by sunbeamgls »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-03-15 22:40 The amount of distortion is of close to zero practical relevance. What kind of distortion is nearly all that matters. Some we can't stand, yet it's hardly measurable. Some we don't mind, yet it's massive.

If this wasn't the case, everyone would hate vinyl, all amplifiers would sound the same and the speakers and the room would be all that mattered. A lot of audiophiles argue this is the case. I say they're wrong.
An interesting point. Do you think, Fredrik, that this bit "some we can't stand" is a constant between individuals, or does it appear to you that it varies between individuals? For example, I don't think I can hear a difference in absolute phase, but some do think it matters to them.

Speakers first seems to me to be what people start from (I was the same when I was first starting out at the age of 16), then they have the opportunity to grow wiser in their hifi journey, but some never do.
KSH/0; KEBox/2; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC fact.12. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6522
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by lejonklou »

I'm sure it varies slightly between individuals. But there is for sure a general consensus among users of the Tune Method that for instance the source is more important than the amplifier and the amplifier more important than the speaker.

I hear the difference between absolute phase and inverted phase. I don't think it's a big difference, rather that correct phase feels right and inverted phase feels like the music is holding back a little.

There is one situation in which trying to eliminate the room in which you're listening makes theoretical sense to me and that is when you're listening to a recording that is trying to preserve the acoustics of the room. To get an illusion of being in that room by listening to a stereo recording is best done without adding the acoustics of your own room.

But: I'm not interested in those illusions. I want to connect to the musical message and that is something different, something deeper and more fulfilling than the illusion of "being there". Why not have both? Well, I'm fine with that, but there's a hierarchy and to me the musical understanding and connection comes first. That's where I get my emotional reward. I won't sacrifice any part of it for a 3D illusion, it would have to come as a bonus.

Never much enjoyed 3D movies either. I felt the effects came at the expense of the film.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by Spannko »

I have a “problem” with SO which I find hard to understand, yet alone describe! It goes along the lines of:

A rooms reverberation time (RT) is purely a function of the room. Reducing the bass output at a room mode frequency doesn’t reduce the RT, it just shifts the level down a bit, making the room mode less apparent. I understand that bit and can accept that, in terms of perceived bass level, there may be an apparent improvement.

The ear/brain is very good at focusing on the first wavefront and filtering out delayed versions of the same sound. However, the ear/brain doesn’t just filter, they also integrate the direct sound with the delayed sound to produce varying degrees of envelopment, until at some point the two sounds can no longer be integrated and a distinct echo is heard. I’m OK with this bit too.

Where I struggle is when we put the two ideas together. The first sound received (the direct sound) will have had all kinds of problems introduced by the sharp suckout filters and the resulting phase anomalies. Although I haven’t tried it, if we set our system up in the garden and applied SO, what we hear would be what we hear first in the room. Something tells me that this cannot be good. We’re not talking about a gentle wideband bass adjustment, these are severe notches, which we know are never a good idea. It’s only a fraction of a second later that we receive the delayed sound, which is integrated with the direct sound filling the notched out bass, giving the impression of even bass.

But, as they say, we can’t un-hear what we’ve heard. We’ve already heard the first (screwed up?) wavefront. No amount of manipulation to the sound to reduce the effect of room modes can change that. I accept that some integration will take place, but we’re integrating a messed up direct sound with a messed up reflected sound. As I see it, the only advantage of using SO is that it evens out the bass, and as we know, this has got bugger all to do with the enjoyable reproduction of music. My experience has been that it’s not the amount of bass which reduces enjoyment, it’s the quality of bass (in terms of its pitch accuracy) which is important, and paradoxically, SO would appear to make it more difficult for the system to excel in this area.
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by beck »

There is nothing to understand Spannko. The signal (read music) is corrupted even before you get to SO. What you hear using SO is just a change to the sound that some (many?) find better.

Listen to the demo:

https://youtu.be/5pHgqQlMT74

The Sondek at the end is worth listening to though...........

Just my 2 cents......
Playing cd’s…………
sunbeamgls
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 2012-04-04 15:19
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by sunbeamgls »

Spannko wrote: 2021-03-16 15:49 I have a “problem” with SO which I find hard to understand, yet alone describe! It goes along the lines of:

A rooms reverberation time (RT) is purely a function of the room. Reducing the bass output at a room mode frequency doesn’t reduce the RT, it just shifts the level down a bit, making the room mode less apparent. I understand that bit and can accept that, in terms of perceived bass level, there may be an apparent improvement.

The ear/brain is very good at focusing on the first wavefront and filtering out delayed versions of the same sound. However, the ear/brain doesn’t just filter, they also integrate the direct sound with the delayed sound to produce varying degrees of envelopment, until at some point the two sounds can no longer be integrated and a distinct echo is heard. I’m OK with this bit too.

Where I struggle is when we put the two ideas together. The first sound received (the direct sound) will have had all kinds of problems introduced by the sharp suckout filters and the resulting phase anomalies. Although I haven’t tried it, if we set our system up in the garden and applied SO, what we hear would be what we hear first in the room. Something tells me that this cannot be good. We’re not talking about a gentle wideband bass adjustment, these are severe notches, which we know are never a good idea. It’s only a fraction of a second later that we receive the delayed sound, which is integrated with the direct sound filling the notched out bass, giving the impression of even bass.

But, as they say, we can’t un-hear what we’ve heard. We’ve already heard the first (screwed up?) wavefront. No amount of manipulation to the sound to reduce the effect of room modes can change that. I accept that some integration will take place, but we’re integrating a messed up direct sound with a messed up reflected sound. As I see it, the only advantage of using SO is that it evens out the bass, and as we know, this has got bugger all to do with the enjoyable reproduction of music. My experience has been that it’s not the amount of bass which reduces enjoyment, it’s the quality of bass (in terms of its pitch accuracy) which is important, and paradoxically, SO would appear to make it more difficult for the system to excel in this area.
So there's more to it than just the room decay time. Because of the length of the waves, at a specified point in the room (Linn use the listening position, of course) at certain frequencies the waves travelling backwards and forwards along the room either perfectly add together (causing a lift in volume at that frequency) or perfectly cancel each other out (causing a lowing in volume at that frequency). Same for room width, diagonals and height. This is the key to SO, not so much room decay. Those frequencies at which the room modes add together at the listening point are the ones that SO notches out, hence reducing the "boominess" perceived by the listener.

I think at higher frequencies the brain is good at filtering out direct / reflected sounds, which is what Fredrik refers to when saying that the room distortion is not significant. However, at lower frequencies, where SO works, the sounds are not perceived as directional (hence why a single sub is often acceptable in an otherwise stereo system). So perhaps the brain can't separate out direct and reflected sound at those lower frequencies?

These excessive levels of bass swamp out harmonic frequencies further up the range, hence changing what we hear - if that's relevant to the musicality of the music is probably a long debate. The excessive bass can also be perceived as a sluggishness to the rhythm and that would seem to be important to musical enjoyment.

Your garden experiment would only lead to you hearing the direct sound and that would be heard with certain frequencies "sucked out" rather than the in-room compensated, flatter response.

The SO filters are applied in the digital domain - they don't screw up phase response like they would in the analogue domain.

Then there's the whole issue of what to do with destructive room modes where the room is effectively removing bass - with a stereo pair of speakers that can't be fixed, so SO misses half of the problem...

Best thing about SO? Its a choice.
KSH/0; KEBox/2; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC fact.12. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.
User avatar
ThomasOK
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 4358
Joined: 2007-02-02 18:41
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by ThomasOK »

The best thing about SO is that you can turn it off.
The LP12 Whisperer
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by Spannko »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-03-16 20:48 The best thing about SO is that you can turn it off.
😂🤣😂 Now, now, Thomas!
donuk
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 406
Joined: 2010-02-21 13:25

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by donuk »

This is turning into an interesting thread with a helpful variety of views.

Just a couple of points. Many recordings bring to the mix, quite literally, the room characteristics of the concert hall, or the amount of bass reverb the producer wishes to add. So in one's own room one is trying to make sense of waves bouncing around in two rooms.

And so much depends on what you like to hear and what you listen to. Personally I like to hear a little bit of bass echo (to put it simply) to give the product a bit of life. But not so much that I cannot hear what is going on. Playing outside can sound very pure and revealing, but often the music is a bit lifeless.

As I have said before, I have played jazz professionally for decades (except the last year!!). I play guitar and most of the time I supply chords and rhythm. It is vital that I hear clearly the notes the bass player is pumping out so I can choose the appropriate chord or inversion. Some rooms one has to play in are terrible in this respect. Some records are terrible and irredeemable too. Frequently I have politely asked a bass player if he or she could cut the bass and increase the treble, simply to enable me to understand what he/she is trying to say musically.

Now, I still like to be able to do this when I listen to my hifi. Which is why I would argue there is a case for SO or similar in some circumstances. With my previous speakers I used a little bit. But I did not configure it as Linn would have me do under SO1. I simply used my iPad and iPhone to generate sine wave from 20 Hz to 100 Hz and listen and read off on an iPhone sound meter the very visible peak in my room around 53 Hz. You know when you have it because it become loud and ornaments rattle. I think SO1 calculated 51 Hz. I did not use much notch cut - about 6 dB I think.

Anyway, this works for me. I am not sure where this places me in the tunedem realm of things. I am prepared for the fact that I am enjoying my music wrongly if only I knew.

But it is all good fun

Donuk beautiful downtown York
beck
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2752
Joined: 2012-10-22 22:25

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by beck »

donuk wrote: 2021-03-16 21:50
Anyway, this works for me. I am not sure where this places me in the tunedem realm of things. I am prepared for the fact that I am enjoying my music wrongly if only I knew.

Donuk beautiful downtown York
If you are enjoying your music nothing is wrong! :-)
Playing cd’s…………
Discodave
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 349
Joined: 2017-05-18 14:50
Location: Belfast, Ireland

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by Discodave »

If you prefer SO on = Great!
If you prefer SO off = Great!
LP12, Lingo 3, Cirkus/Kore, Tramp 2, Basik Plus Ania, Linto
Majik Ds, Kisto, Tundra 2.0, Majik 109
Rudi64
Member
Member
Posts: 28
Joined: 2013-06-07 18:51

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by Rudi64 »

Anybody heard the Boazu with Akudoriks? Can the Boazu handle the Akudoriks well?
Opinions-preferation about Boazu-MDSM2 as streamer-Akudoriks against Tundra-MDSM2 as streamer and preamp-Akudoriks?
Mayby something for the future to consider..
Linn Akudoriks- Linn MDSM/2- Majik Exaktbox I - Blue Jeans cat6a
Lots of K400 speakercable
sunbeamgls
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 2012-04-04 15:19
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by sunbeamgls »

Discodave wrote: 2021-03-17 00:41 If you prefer SO on = Great!
If you prefer SO off = Great!
If only life were so simple. SO is not binary, it needs care to get it right.
KSH/0; KEBox/2; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC fact.12. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.
sunbeamgls
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1087
Joined: 2012-04-04 15:19
Location: North Wales
Contact:

Re: Boazu with Majik140

Post by sunbeamgls »

Rudi64 wrote: 2021-03-17 17:39 Anybody heard the Boazu with Akudoriks? Can the Boazu handle the Akudoriks well?
Opinions-preferation about Boazu-MDSM2 as streamer-Akudoriks against Tundra-MDSM2 as streamer and preamp-Akudoriks?
Mayby something for the future to consider..
No, but have heard it with passive Akubariks and it was very enjoyable indeed - in a smallish room.

This was with ADSM/3 - I would suggest Akurate level source should be a minimum for Akubarik / Akudorik.
KSH/0; KEBox/2; 3x Tundra Stereo 2.5; PMC fact.12. Blogger. Exakt Design. SO measuring.
Post Reply