Hi all,
New to the forum. Considering purchase of Tundra 2.2, but wondering if compatibility with my preamp or speakers will be sub-optimal. Have an EAR Yoshino 868L preamp which puts out 5 volts and 600 ohms into balanced or unbalanced output. Too much for Tundra?
Also, will Tundra power my Harbeth 30.2 speakers to reasonable volume with this preamp?
Thanks!

Answered my own question by trial and error. Tundra stereo version will drive the Graham Audio LS5/9s which are very similar to Harbeth 30.2s. No issues here.

Cool! Thank you for reporting!

redwoodaudio wrote: ↑2021-05-05 22:15 Answered my own question by trial and error. Tundra stereo version will drive the Graham Audio LS5/9s which are very similar to Harbeth 30.2s. No issues here.

How do the Graham LS5/9s and Harbeth 30.2 sound with your Tundra 2.2? Do you have a preference between the two? What did the Tundra replace?

I had sold the Harbeth 30.2s before getting the Lejonklou Tundra. The Tundra + Graham LS 5/9 was revelatory -- the most perfect match I've had yet. I had been using a variety of amps prior to the Tundra, including Ayre v5xe, BAT VK220, 100wpc 6550 monoblocks. Now, I just upgraded my speakers to newer top-line Graham LS 5/5 to be my "forever" speaker and they're not quite as 'magical' a combo with the Tundra as the LS 5/9s, but overall incredible improvement from the speakers alone.

redwoodaudio wrote: ↑2021-05-19 21:28 I had sold the Harbeth 30.2s before getting the Lejonklou Tundra. The Tundra + Graham LS 5/9 was revelatory -- the most perfect match I've had yet. I had been using a variety of amps prior to the Tundra, including Ayre v5xe, BAT VK220, 100wpc 6550 monoblocks. Now, I just upgraded my speakers to newer top-line Graham LS 5/5 to be my "forever" speaker and they're not quite as 'magical' a combo with the Tundra as the LS 5/9s, but overall incredible improvement from the speakers alone.

Congratulations on some great speakers! I heard them at a trade show here in Hamburg with suboptimal electronics and source and even then they were very impressive.

I heard them at the same show as Tendaberry. Their position in the room was likely all wrong as well, but they still made an impression on me. And not just by their extreme (and rather cool) exterior.

I assume the two of you are referring to the LS5/5s (and not the LS5/9s). I'd like to add that the LS5/5s are exquisite speakers with all of the amplification I've tried with them thus far. Absolutely enchanting vocal reproduction unlike anything I've ever heard. Full range to 40hz or lower. For such large, boxy speakers, they also really disappear when set up right and with good source material. I hadn't really considered spending $15k+ on speakers until recently, but really good speakers (well-made, attractive, bespoke drivers/crossover) cost a lot of money.

You may need Tundra Monos for those big boys?! They look quite impressive and equally interesting. Once we get some shows going here again I'll have to check them out.

redwoodaudio wrote: ↑2021-05-19 21:28 I had sold the Harbeth 30.2s before getting the Lejonklou Tundra. The Tundra + Graham LS 5/9 was revelatory -- the most perfect match I've had yet. I had been using a variety of amps prior to the Tundra, including Ayre v5xe, BAT VK220, 100wpc 6550 monoblocks. Now, I just upgraded my speakers to newer top-line Graham LS 5/5 to be my "forever" speaker and they're not quite as 'magical' a combo with the Tundra as the LS 5/9s, but overall incredible improvement from the speakers alone.

Congratulations on your Graham LS5/5 speakers! Post some music links when you can!

Cheers!

Interesting... and very good to know, just curious... a couple of questions about those Grahams. What room size have you placed the LS5/9, and LS/5 in? And what kind of stands? I have been thinking about the LS5/9 for some time now... for a small room.

I've been using the speakers in a relatively large room but in nearfield/midfield setup approximately 90" from the tweeters, equilateral triangle.

And it appears that one Tundra is NOT powerful enough for the 3-way LS5/5s, so I will be listing it for sale here. Too bad, but it should go to a new owner who has simpler speakers to drive.

maybe your speaker setup is not perfect? it seems you follow what many loudspeaker makers tell about what is important ... only issue its not
there is a thread „how to set loudspeakers up for best musical performance“ follow the description which Fredrik gives

The equilateral triangle idea for positioning loudspeakers is indeed a recipy for disaster. I can't believe how it has survived all these years.

Sorry to hear that a Tundra doesn't drive the LS5/5's to high enough levels in your room (loudness is very room dependent). How efficient are they?

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-22 20:36 How efficient are they?

88dB

Matt

lejonklou wrote: ↑2021-05-22 20:36 The equilateral triangle idea for positioning loudspeakers is indeed a recipy for disaster. I can't believe how it has survived all these years.

Sorry to hear that a Tundra doesn't drive the LS5/5's to high enough levels in your room (loudness is very room dependent). How efficient are they?

You're the engineer and I'm not, but going from the similarly 'efficient' 2-way LS5/9s to 3-way LS5/5s seemed to significantly change the power requirements. I could definitely get the LS5/5s loud enough with the Tundra, so that wasn't the issue. It was that the soundstage and other sonic qualities I heard with the LS5/9s diminished considerably, all else being equal.

I've heard it elsewhere that 3-way speakers are typically harder to drive. For example, Octave Audio in Germany recommends their power supply "Black Boxes" not for 'less efficient' speakers, per se, but for multi-way speakers generally.

Right now, my 100 wpc Wavestream Kinetics 6550 tube monoblocks are doing for the LS5/5s what the Tundra did for the LS5/9s, although not quite as dramatically. My next stop on the solid-state train is going to be a used Bryston 4B3 (300 wpc into 8 ohms). Not sure if that is considered blasphemy on this board, but we'll see how it goes.

And equilateral triangle setup in my room has so far been the optimal setup for me. Not going by dogma here, personally.

Defender wrote: ↑2021-05-22 18:17 maybe your speaker setup is not perfect? it seems you follow what many loudspeaker makers tell about what is important ... only issue its not
there is a thread „how to set loudspeakers up for best musical performance“ follow the description which Fredrik gives

+1, Yes, very good proposal from Defender. When you implement it maybe the whole picture will be different, as was in my system ... It works ... Perfectly.

Hi Redwoodaudio, for sure you can do as you like and it is certainly not considered blasphemy to go with what you think gives you the most happiness from your system and money spent.
Some of your statements in your post make me believe you use a different evaluation method than most of us do. There is the possibility that you misinterpret the harmonic distortion that your tube amps likely induce into your system as perceived sound stage.
I know many people like the Bryston amps and you might end up happy with it - what I am trying to do is save you the possibility of going the wrong path.

It costs you no money to try the procedure and you might end up shaking your head not believing what you can get out of your system.
After I did it on now 2 sets of loudspeakers I am a firm believer that about 90% of music systems are using a setup that is non optimal and sadly thats based on the recommendation of their own loudspeaker company (they should know - don’t they). However Fredriks experience is based on probably over hundred setups.

The last millimeters in the setup are a revelation. Before you can hear everything - boomy bass, harshness, musicians doing everything individually it can even sound they play wrong. I heard even changes of perceived volume. When everything is alright it seems everything „clicks in“, is focused and a realistic soundstage comes automatically with it. You can follow background instruments playing low volume as easy as you can follow front stage instruments and the same record now gives justice to the professional musicians.

Its more difficult if you have to do it alone:
- be structured write your findings down
- only change one thing at the time
- note down what you have changed
- do bigger steps in the beginning and smaller steps at the end ... dont start with too small steps
- use music which you are not familiar with and which in your opinion doesnt sound really good.

just my two cents - you have wonderful speakers and a wonderful power amp its worth to test it!

Defender wrote: ↑2021-05-23 10:19 Some of your statements in your post make me believe you use a different evaluation method than most of us do. There is the possibility that you misinterpret the harmonic distortion that your tube amps likely induce into your system as perceived sound stage.

I really didn't come to this forum to 'stir the pot,' as they say, but to get help and provide empirical information. It just so happens that my original post was a request for advice, which I had to answer myself (no hard feelings, for sure, it was very specific), but now that I'm sharing my experience more broadly, the forum wants me to take some unsolicited advice seemingly couched in condescension, as if I didn't know how to listen carefully or tune my system, because I didn't like a specific amp/speaker pairing as much as another. Come on guys, we can have different experiences or expectations without being 'wrong.'

I happen to be really glad I took a chance on the Tundra amp -- its an incredible piece of gear that is clearly a labor of devotion from Mr. Lejonklou. I wish more people near me in the US knew about it. I'll be moving on from it not because of any inherent weakness of the amp (it is admittedly and unabashedly low-powered for solid state), but simply to seek a more synergistic match.

Thanks to the forum for sharing my enthusiasm about my new speakers. I also hope you get to hear them as time goes on.

Hi redwoodaudio

I'm always delighted to hear of someone discovering Lejonklou electronics. Similarly Graham loudspeakers. I have both, and I'm very pleased indeed. I didn't respond to your original post because I've no experience of your pre-amp, and although I know that Harbeth 30.2 have design similarities to the Graham LS5/9, I've never heard them sounding similar - probably because the amplification has been different? Finally, my experience of Graham speakers has been with Tundra Monos, not the stereo.

I found the LS5/9s (87db sensitivity) more difficult to drive than the five-way passive Linn Akubariks, in terms of how far I had to crank up the volume level. In comparison, the LS5/8 (89db) was a little easier than the LS5/9. So I'm guessing that the LS5/5 (88db) might be in between, but still easier than the LS5/9? In some ways, the LS5/8 was the better speaker - but I chose the LS5/9 because it had a distinct and infectious musicality which shaded that of the bigger speaker. Plus it didn't block half the daylight when placed in front of my window :))

I'm always aware that there is a fine line between enthusiasm and evangelism, which can easily get blurred on a forum where English is not the first language for many. Please don't be put off by well-meaning, if unsolicited, advice.

David Neel wrote: ↑2021-05-24 22:58 I found the LS5/9s (87db sensitivity) more difficult to drive than the five-way passive Linn Akubariks, in terms of how far I had to crank up the volume level. In comparison, the LS5/8 (89db) was a little easier than the LS5/9. So I'm guessing that the LS5/5 (88db) might be in between, but still easier than the LS5/9? In some ways, the LS5/8 was the better speaker - but I chose the LS5/9 because it had a distinct and infectious musicality which shaded that of the bigger speaker. Plus it didn't block half the daylight when placed in front of my window :))

Thank you for your warm reply. I too will be a life-long fan of the Graham LS5/9 and I'm very pleased to have taken a chance on it after having loved the Harbeth 30.2s for a while. A/B tested side by side in the same system, the Grahams clearly conveyed more of the music (and especially the treble) than the Harbeths. I've never heard the 5/8s, but I'm sure they're delightful as well. dB sensitivity aside, there clearly is more to the efficiency of a speaker, and the crossover of the LS5/5 is reportedly far more complex than any other Graham design, and this likely explains some if not all of the higher current requirements (at least in my system). They have a BIG cabinet (especially in depth), but a reasonable profile with the grills on.

@ redwoodaudio: Have you considered the Tundra monoblocks? They might be the answer to your search for the right amp/s.

Tendaberry wrote: ↑2021-05-25 13:39 @ redwoodaudio: Have you considered the Tundra monoblocks? They might be the answer to your search for the right amp/s.

A good recommendation, but after splurging on those Graham speakers, I cannot afford a new set of Tundra monos. Maybe someone wants to sell me their used pair?

Hi Redwoodaudio,
even though its not easy for me to make another attempt after you accused me for talking down on you I will try to explain.
I can understand that you took it as offense when I told you I believe you have a different evaluation method.
Are you aware that there is this Tune Dem method to evaluate differences between components and setups?
We use this method here for evaluation. You used words in your description that made me believe you are not using the tune dem method.
The „other“ evaluation method would usually speak about tight bass, sweet mids and detailed highs, a big soundstage and air around the instruments just to name a few - thats hifi terms.

When I say believe it means I dont know - so there is still the possibility you use the tune dem method.

The next point is we/I believe in „source first“ meaning the source is the most important piece in the musical reproduction.

What is your situation:
You have changed an exceptional speaker for another exceptional speaker and now you are not completely happy with what you hear anymore. Yes I know that some loads (speakers) can make a power amp struggle.
On the other hand you changed the in my opinion least important component in your system (hence source first). Now you think your power amp - which would be more important than the speaker - is the issue ... even though you say the volume level is not the problem it is more the sound stage and other musical qualities and you was happy with the power amp with your other speakers.

Still you can surely do what you like - I dont even recommend you to buy Tundra Monos because I am not convinced that the power amp is the issue in the first place. And I dont even think the new speakers are. Your new speakers are more efficient than the ones you had before and many forum members drive speakers with the Tundra Stereo which are more difficult to drive than your efficiency rating on your new speakers suggest.

So what do I think the issue is - you new speakers might need a different position in your room to really shine.

I recommended a thread for you to explain how to do it ... and it will not be a waste of time anyway as even if you find out the Tundra Stereo can not drive your speakers properly the position you will find out with this method will be the best position or very close (within mm’s) even when you change to the Byston Amp.

So you doesnt lose anything.

I just have the opinion you cant come to a conclusion yet based on what you tried so far.
BTW are your loudspeakers bought new? If yes how many hours playtime are on them?

Defender wrote: ↑2021-05-27 13:40 Are you aware that there is this Tune Dem method to evaluate differences between components and setups?
We use this method here for evaluation. You used words in your description that made me believe you are not using the tune dem method.

Hi Defender,
No harm done. Please link to the information on your method so I can check it out myself. I wish there was more information about the LS5/5s available, but I don't think their stated 88db sensitivity tells the whole story. In my 2-3 weeks I've had them now, it wasn't until moving them to the equilateral triangle setup that they sounded right to me. I had started out with them closer together and slightly closer to the listening position (basically where I had the LS5/9s) and they didn't seem as open in the soundstage as the LS5/9s had. Playing them for several hours per day with my more powerful tube amp in the current geometric setup has been VERY satisfying, though.
Thank you,
Ben