Tundra Stereo 2.5

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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2021-09-24 11:50 Hmm. Good point! But, is it really possible to see the flow of power as being separate from the flow of musicality? Without power, there is no musicality. With power, we can have a range of musicality, depending upon the nature of the power. Isn’t musicality our interpretation of the quality of the signal riding on the back of the power circuit? Somewhere, there must be a link?
Yes, you need to separate the music signal from the power. Otherwise you can't build anything.

The music doesn't travel from your mains outlet to the transformer, through the rectifier and into the regulator. Power runs in that path. I'd draw those parts vertically (along the Y-axis). They are all affecting the music at the points where they're powering stuff.

The flow of music I'd draw horizontally, from left to right (along the X-axis). The power coming down vertically keeps it alive. There's likely multiple vertical power paths.

The Hierarchy is evident along the horizontal axis. Along the vertical axis it doesn't exist.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by lejonklou »

By the way, when you wrote "flow of musicality", I assume that you meant "flow of the music signal".

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by sunbeamgls »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-24 12:11
Spannko wrote: 2021-09-24 11:50 Hmm. Good point! But, is it really possible to see the flow of power as being separate from the flow of musicality? Without power, there is no musicality. With power, we can have a range of musicality, depending upon the nature of the power. Isn’t musicality our interpretation of the quality of the signal riding on the back of the power circuit? Somewhere, there must be a link?
Yes, you need to separate the music signal from the power. Otherwise you can't build anything.

The music doesn't travel from your mains outlet to the transformer, through the rectifier and into the regulator. Power runs in that path. I'd draw those parts vertically (along the Y-axis). They are all affecting the music at the points where they're powering stuff.

The flow of music I'd draw horizontally, from left to right (along the X-axis). The power coming down vertically keeps it alive. There's likely multiple vertical power paths.

The Hierarchy is evident along the horizontal axis. Along the vertical axis it doesn't exist.
I like this graph analogy Fredrik, its a good visual to get the concept across.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by sunbeamgls »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-24 10:58
The mistake you're making is to confuse the music signal with a flow of power.

Source First, or the Hierarchy, doesn't apply to the flow of power in your power supply. It applies to the flow of music from one component to the next, in which case a previous component always has a more fundamental influence on quality than the next component.
I agree, more fundamental, yes. This doesn't make the impact of components further down the stream irrelevant, they're still very much relevant. Where one of those following components is totally unmusical, it can potentially mask the musicality of the source.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-24 13:23 By the way, when you wrote "flow of musicality", I assume that you meant "flow of the music signal".

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
That’s correct. The term musicality reminds me that our goal is to deliver a musical signal, not just a music signal. I’m becoming increasingly aware just how easy it is to turn what was originally a musical signal into a plain old boring music signal.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by V.A.MKD »

Spannko wrote: 2021-09-25 12:26
lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-24 13:23 By the way, when you wrote "flow of musicality", I assume that you meant "flow of the music signal".

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
That’s correct. The term musicality reminds me that our goal is to deliver a musical signal, not just a music signal. I’m becoming increasingly aware just how easy it is to turn what was originally a musical signal into a plain old boring music signal.
+1
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by Spannko »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-09-24 12:11
Spannko wrote: 2021-09-24 11:50 Hmm. Good point! But, is it really possible to see the flow of power as being separate from the flow of musicality? Without power, there is no musicality. With power, we can have a range of musicality, depending upon the nature of the power. Isn’t musicality our interpretation of the quality of the signal riding on the back of the power circuit? Somewhere, there must be a link?
Yes, you need to separate the music signal from the power. Otherwise you can't build anything.

The music doesn't travel from your mains outlet to the transformer, through the rectifier and into the regulator. Power runs in that path. I'd draw those parts vertically (along the Y-axis). They are all affecting the music at the points where they're powering stuff.

The flow of music I'd draw horizontally, from left to right (along the X-axis). The power coming down vertically keeps it alive. There's likely multiple vertical power paths.

The Hierarchy is evident along the horizontal axis. Along the vertical axis it doesn't exist.
Since I haven’t had a formal electronics education, my understanding is quite limited, however this does allow me to be curious and think differently 🤪


If I’ve understood you correctly, your graph analogy reminds me of a circuit diagram, with the power lines running horizontally feeding the circuit components vertically. So the power flows horizontally (at eg y = 20V) and at various points will flow vertically to the x-axis (at y = 0V)?

If we converted this into a working circuit, it could look like a battery supplying 9V to 6 bulbs wired in parallel, or even just a battery with a single bulb? So we have a battery and a bulb. Surely they both constitute a “circuit”?

I think I’m right in saying that we could replace the bulbs with a transistor, capacitor, resistor and loudspeaker, which would get us nearer to a useful circuit? With the addition of an input signal, we would have a working amplifier?

Now let’s put the battery in a separate box and add multiple components to the amplifier circuit.

At what point does the battery not become part of the amplifier circuit?

Ah, but this isn’t what we’re talking about, I hear you say! Where’s the music signal?

Let’s pop a signal into our amplifier circuit. I think this modulates the power line to generate vibrations in the loudspeaker? But, we can’t just pick a signal out of thin air. We have to generate it in some way. Why not use our simple amplifier circuit, with the addition of a microphone (the generator)?

Now we’ve got two batteries, two amplifiers, a microphone and a loudspeaker. To save weight, cost and the planet, let’s power both amplifiers from the same battery. Is the battery still part of the circuit, or is it, as most electronic engineers emphatically state, a separate, inert entity?

No matter what theory suggests, our experience tells us that if we change the battery, the sound produced by the loudspeaker will change. Consequently, the battery must be part of the circuit (I’m sure Julian Vereker would be yawning at this point, saying “I told you that 50 years ago!”)

Source first might suggest that it’s the most important part, given that the signal rides on top of it. But what about the microphone? Isn’t that the source? I think what you were suggesting is that there is both a power source and a signal source, only the signal circuit works hierarchically and we need to separate the music signal from the power in order to design something?

However, our thought experiment with a battery, microphone, two amplifiers and a loudspeaker tends to suggest that there is no separation. Topologically, isn’t it the same as just a battery and a bulb, so therefore just one (larger) circuit?
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by ThomasOK »

Spannko, I think you are overcomplicating it. At the risk of getting it all wrong and having Fredrik correct me (I am not an electronics engineer, I'm more of a mechanical guy with some limited electronic understanding) let me give this a shot. Nobody is saying the power supply is not an important part of the musical perfromance of an piece of Hi-Fi. This is obvious from the musical superiority of the Klimax Radikal over the Akurate Radikal and of the Boazu 1.3 over the 1.1 (the two upgrades were both to the SMPS modules). Also following this it is likely that the power supply to the source is most important, then to the preamp, then to the power amp. I believe what Fredrik was saying, if I understood it properly, is that the Hierarchy applies to the units handling the musical signal, but is not viable with the components within the power supply. This doesn't mean that the power supply isn't musically important, nor that the components used in the power supply aren't musically important (again as in the Boazu 1.3 upgrade which replaces one cap and three resistors with musically superior parts), but that there isn't a Hierarchy in the components used in a power supply that follows the flow of power.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by tokenbrit »

ThomasOK wrote: 2021-09-25 16:28 Spannko, I think you are overcomplicating it...
Not to mention off-topic. It feels like this should be moved to its own thread rather than under Defender's review
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by Spannko »

Thanks for your input Thomas. I actually agree with everything you’ve said! I believe I started the discussion by suggesting that, experimentally, I hadn’t detected a hierarchy within my power supply, feeling that all components were equally important. This surprised me, since as being a believer in source first, my expectation was that the input socket would be the most important.

This then made me wonder about the validity of “source first” and whether it was just “a story that fits”.

When thinking about the signal path, surely the phono sockets would be the most important component?
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by Defender »

a little update about my experience with the Tundra 2.5

It is playing really wonderful - the most relaxed way I ever enjoyed music. Can’t wait for the Tundra Monos even though its difficult to imagine they would be even more musical.

Not really that I miss something now but there is agreement here that the Monos are special.
For every one who worries if the Tundra can play loud enough ... they absolutely do and I dont want to go as far as to test when my ears start to bleed.

Usually I tend to end up in the green to yellow area of the Sagatuns which is between 60 and 70.
My Akurate DS seem to need about 5steps more compared to play through LP12/Entity which I dont really understand why but thats the way it is. Meaning when I use the Entity at 60-65 steps at the volume control it would be 65-70 to achieve the same volume in the room with the Akurate DS.

Does that mean I can overdrive the Tundra earlier with the Entity because Entity‘s output is initially higher than the one from the Akurate DS - I dont know.
However I never needed to get over 70 at the Sagatun.

What I find impressive is how less the different frequencies in the music influence each other. Before I always had the feeling bass intense music overlays what is going on in the midrange. Here it completely doesnt have any dependency from each other making it sound always very transparent, relaxed and at ease.
But the most interesting is how easy it is to follow the musicians simultaneously without having to focus/jump from one to another.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for the update, Defender!

Entity is very high gain, so it does seem reasonable that you need another 5 steps to achieve the same volume when listening to the ADS.

Your Tundra will handle 78 in volume before it clips, which means that with the Entity, the upper limit will be around 73.

A difference between digital and analogue sources is that with digital, you always know how loud the peaks in the music are. With analogue, everything varies. Cartridges differ in their output level and records can be cut with very differing amplitudes. When developing SINGularity, I hunted around for the loudest possible vinyl record, in order to check where the upper limit was for cartridge output level. I found a test record which confirmed that Linn's Arkiv, Akiva and Kandid and Lyra's Atlas, Etna and Kleos levels of 0.4 mV @ 3.54 cm/s was OK. But not much more than that. So SINGularity and Entity are fine with all low level cartridges from extremely low to 0.4 mV @ 3.54 cm/s.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by Defender »

thank you for the clarification. I am so curious about it because I never heard an amp clip and have no experience how that sounds and how fast it can damage the loudspeakers so I rather keep some headroom.

Would clipping be rather heard as distortion in the tweeters and how does is sound? Like noise or like something crackling? And is it obvious or can it happen almost unnoticed in the background?
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by lejonklou »

Defender wrote: 2021-09-30 21:56 thank you for the clarification. I am so curious about it because I never heard an amp clip and have no experience how that sounds and how fast it can damage the loudspeakers so I rather keep some headroom.

Would clipping be rather heard as distortion in the tweeters and how does is sound? Like noise or like something crackling? And is it obvious or can it happen almost unnoticed in the background?
It is very obvious and sounds like a "snap" and sometimes a slight crumbling. Usually it comes on a loud bass note. The more you raise the volume, the louder the snap will be.

A little clipping is completely harmless. It won't damage the amplifier or your speakers. It's nothing more than a signal that is being cut off, so the top and bottom become flat instead of round. I suggest you turn it up until you hear it (assuming your loudspeakers can handle at least 50W of input power). Then you'll never have to be afraid of it again.

A LOT of clipping can damage your tweeters. That is because the flatness of the cut off signal contains lots of frequencies (hence the snap), from low to high. So an amp that is constantly clipping will produce a lot of treble and that will heat up the tweeters. The amp can also start oscillating and burn its output stage. Before you reach this stage, you will think the music sounds terrible and will really want to turn it down.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by Defender »

thank you for the explanation - that really helped to be less afraid

I think I have heard what you describe - not on the Tundra! not on my Pass amp but some years ago in a different setup. One friend of mine is really driving the speakers very loud and I heard that - at that time I thought he was overpowering the speaker chassis/diaphragm - I didnt thought it could be the amp clipping.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by lejonklou »

I see! When amps clip it does sound similar to when the speakers are bottoming out.

These two events are also each other's equivalent. The amp is bottoming out against the supply rails and the speaker drive unit is bottoming out against its excursion limits.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by jim123 »

Could I ask an unrelated question to everyone (or should I start a new thread). Do you think I would be better with 2x tundra 2.5s and drive my speakers actively or 2x mono and passive use? Thanks all!
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by jim123 »

Perhaps I should add I have an LP12, Entity and Kudos Titan 505s and very little technical knowledge
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by ThomasOK »

jim123 wrote: 2021-10-14 21:22 Could I ask an unrelated question to everyone (or should I start a new thread). Do you think I would be better with 2x tundra 2.5s and drive my speakers actively or 2x mono and passive use? Thanks all!
I would say unquestionably two Tundra Mono 2.2 passively. The better amp(s) passive has always musically outperformed lesser amps active in my experience. The hierarchy really works in all circumstances that I have tried over a fair number of years, even when people thought it might not be the case. Better amp before more amps. Also the crossover enters into this and the active crossover has to be very, very good not to let things down before the music gets to the amps.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by jim123 »

Thanks Thomas,

Do you think this could be a more musical passive system than an aktive system? I currently have a klimax hub and Akurate Exakt box 6 Kat?

If I deaktivate I could try the Kalla!

I must try and listen to these options here in the uk
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by sunbeamgls »

@lejonklou

Are you able to explain why, even when Tundra is left powered up, that it comes on song after about 20 minutes of playing actual music playing please? It doesn't even seem to be related to the volume it is playing.

Thanks
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by Spannko »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2021-11-01 15:35 @lejonklou

Are you able to explain why, even when Tundra is left powered up, that it comes on song after about 20 minutes of playing actual music playing please? It doesn't even seem to be related to the volume it is playing.

Thanks
Are you sure it’s the Tundra warming up and not the speakers?
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by sunbeamgls »

Spannko wrote: 2021-11-01 19:05
sunbeamgls wrote: 2021-11-01 15:35 @lejonklou

Are you able to explain why, even when Tundra is left powered up, that it comes on song after about 20 minutes of playing actual music playing please? It doesn't even seem to be related to the volume it is playing.

Thanks
Are you sure it’s the Tundra warming up and not the speakers?
Yep, doesn't matter which speakers. And other amps with the same speakers don't go through such a change.

Edit: although some amps (e.g. Naim 250DR, Cyrus Mono X) do come on song about 20 mins after being powered up, but not needing a signal going through them)
Last edited by sunbeamgls on 2021-11-01 21:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by David Neel »

My face is still red from the time I compared power strips and power cords, when the A/B comparisons involved powering down all or some of the kit....

But now I accept it, and wait. It's worth it! I'm not sure how knowing why would help...
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Re: Tundra Stereo 2.5

Post by lejonklou »

sunbeamgls wrote: 2021-11-01 15:35 Are you able to explain why, even when Tundra is left powered up, that it comes on song after about 20 minutes of playing actual music playing please? It doesn't even seem to be related to the volume it is playing.
Not really. I have some ideas but it's not easy to isolate and confirm them.

I don't find the phenomenon that obvious, however. I used to think it was my Tundra Mono's that kicked into a higher gear after playing one side of a vinyl record. But then I took JBL 308 home, which have internal power amps, and the higher gear-effect was about the same. And then I changed Sagatun Mono to a Giella Pi and it was still the same.

In my system it appears to be the LP12 that kicks into a higher gear after about half an hour. I thought it was mainly the Radikal that needed to drive the platter, but even if I already have it spinning, there's still something that is elevated. I don't mind, I rather look forward to it.
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