Vertical bi-amping Tundra?

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Sopper
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Vertical bi-amping Tundra?

Post by Sopper »

Hello,

I was wondering if there could or would be any benefit to vertical bi-amp speakers with 2 x Tundra stereo amplifiers.

In practise this means that 1 stereo Tundra is driving 1 speaker.
The 2 left outputs from Sagatun to left and right input of the Tundra placed left.
The 2 right outputs from Sagatun to left and right input of the Tundra placed right.
The left speaker output to LF input speaker.
The right speaker output to HF input speaker.

Possible benefits:
Shorter speaker cables; each Tundra can be placed closest to speaker.
Easier load on amplifier; no need to move 2 LF woofers like in normal setup.

What are your thoughts?
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
Cables: Trivium Audio Cables
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lejonklou
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Re: Vertical bi-amping Tundra?

Post by lejonklou »

Hi Sopper!

I have tried this and many other combinations. These are some of the things I found:

• Bi- or multi-amping passive speakers, either vertically or horizontally, sounds "more" but is musically confused compared to single amping. It sounds as if the drive units are more separated, both in a good (it seems you can hear more sounds) and bad (they are not as well timed and integrated, so there's less music) sense.

• The same is true for bi- or multi-wiring passive speakers, but the effect is smaller.

• With active speakers, where the crossover sits before the power amps and each drive unit is fed by one channel of power amplification, I have found that horizontal amping is preferable to vertical. For instance, one two-channel power amp drives left and right treble, rather than left treble and bass.

• If you for some reason want to send the signal from a Sagatun preamp to two or more amplifiers, it sounds better if you daisy chain the signal (Sagatun to first power amp, first power amp to second power amp) than to use both outputs on Sagatun.

• Having shorter speaker wires is only beneficial down to a certain point: The optimal length. Shorter than optimal sounds really bad! Too long is sloppy and slow, but musically much better than too short, which sounds nervous, restless and annoying. The same phenomenon appears in some, but not all, other types of cables.
Sopper
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Re: Vertical bi-amping Tundra?

Post by Sopper »

Thanks for your experience, Fredrik.
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
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Re: Vertical bi-amping Tundra?

Post by lejonklou »

I highly recommend comparing vertical with horizontal multi-amping - either in passive or active configuration. It's very educational and you'll be surprised by how different they are.

They both have something right and something not quite right. Vertical is more homogenic and powerful within each speaker, but it's also more messy. Horizontal makes each range cleaner but separates them from one another.

If you install the amps with the rear facing out and mark all cables, you can make fast switches between the two.

Then I suggest ending the session with listening to single amp-single wire to each speaker. If you have two Tundra's, use one channel on each, leaving the other channel unused.
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Re: Vertical bi-amping Tundra?

Post by Sopper »

lejonklou wrote:I highly recommend comparing vertical with horizontal multi-amping - either in passive or active configuration. It's very educational and you'll be surprised by how different they are.

They both have something right and something not quite right. Vertical is more homogenic and powerful within each speaker, but it's also more messy.
Why more messy?
Using 2 identical amplifiers with exact same input and output voltages, it should work like matched mono pairs, wouldn’t it?
lejonklou wrote: If you install the amps with the rear facing out and mark all cables, you can make fast switches between the two.
Good tip!
lejonklou wrote: Then I suggest ending the session with listening to single amp-single wire to each speaker. If you have two Tundra's, use one channel on each, leaving the other channel unused.
Using one channel will only relieve the power supply, right?
I don’t own 2 Tundra’s, but was just wondering if it was worth it to try (less costs then upgrading to mono’s).

Receiving 2 identical Quad 303’s today for sole purpose to hear different bi-amp configurations.
Both Quads have identical revision and are carefully matched on in- and output voltages.
Pretty cheap way to play with bi-amping and to see if it’s worth at all.
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
Cables: Trivium Audio Cables
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Re: Vertical bi-amping Tundra?

Post by lejonklou »

Sopper wrote:
lejonklou wrote:I highly recommend comparing vertical with horizontal multi-amping - either in passive or active configuration. It's very educational and you'll be surprised by how different they are.

They both have something right and something not quite right. Vertical is more homogenic and powerful within each speaker, but it's also more messy.
Why more messy?
Using 2 identical amplifiers with exact same input and output voltages, it should work like matched mono pairs, wouldn’t it?
The difference is the sharing of power supplies, power cord and case. Apparently that has quite an impact.

But even with perfectly matched mono amplifiers, I find that using four of them to bi-amp a passive speaker is musically more messy and confused than to single amp with two.
Sopper wrote:
lejonklou wrote: Then I suggest ending the session with listening to single amp-single wire to each speaker. If you have two Tundra's, use one channel on each, leaving the other channel unused.
Using one channel will only relieve the power supply, right?
I don’t own 2 Tundra’s, but was just wondering if it was worth it to try (less costs then upgrading to mono’s).
Yes, it doubles the available power from the power supplies. Whether it's worth it is difficult to answer. One thing to do if you try it is to compare left and right channels within each stereo amplifier. And then use the one that's a little better (there's usually a difference, even if it's tiny). It's also necessary to have amps of the same generation - either both with serial number below 060 or both 60+.
Sopper wrote:Receiving 2 identical Quad 303’s today for sole purpose to hear different bi-amp configurations.
Both Quads have identical revision and are carefully matched on in- and output voltages.
Pretty cheap way to play with bi-amping and to see if it’s worth at all.
Interesting, please report your findings!
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Re: Vertical bi-amping Tundra?

Post by Sopper »

So, I’ve experimented with 4 configurations:
1. Just a single Quad 303 in stereo
2. 2 Quad 303’s, each driving one channel
3. 2 Quad 303’s in vertical bi-amp
4. 2 Quad 303’s in horizontal bi-amp

1. Just a single Quad 303 in stereo
Surprisingly good; I can understand why they are still used and wanted. A bit on the warm side.
Listened in stereo for about a week to get used to the “Quad” sound.

2. 2 Quad 303’s, each driving one channel
Better channel separation (as expected), but overall pretty much the same as using one in stereo. Couldn’t detect more headroom as one would expect because the power is only needed for driving 1 channel.

3. 2 Quad 303’s in vertical bi-amp
My favourite; channel separation like the previous configuration and added space, wider soundstage and more details. Can’t think of anything wrong in this setup.

4. 2 Quad 303’s in horizontal bi-amp
Did nothing to my ears. Just like using one in stereo...

One annoyance is that the Quad 303 are not quiet when not playing anything. I could hear them “sissing” from my listening position. Not sure if that’s normal, maybe sensitive to power or cables or the revision was not 100% perfect; couldn’t figure it out. It was not the Sagatun; the level of noise was the same when powering off the Sagatun.

Anyways, when I installed back the Lejonklou Tundra stereo, It struck me how good this amplifier is.
Dead quiet background, also referred too as black background, and just everything right. The music flows so easily; play music, turn up the volume and forget about it. It never gets tiring.

So the Quads are getting sold and I’m pleased to keep listening to the Tundra.
KÄLLA > Sagatun Mono 1.7 > Tundra Mono 3.0 > Graham LS8/1F
Cables: Trivium Audio Cables
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