New Lejonklou Preamplifier
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No dual volume circuitry in the Kikkin. The parts that are most separated between channels are the output stages, which are two separate circuits on separate ground planes.Charlie1 wrote:Does your Kikkin have dual volume circuitry...?
We discussed the dual mono thing in a different thread (and someone came up with links to several dual mono preamps) and I do believe that for ultimate performance, this is the right way to go. It may not always be the most economical way to improve performance, though. Even the new Klimax Kontrol has only one Slimline power supply, doesn't it? I bet it could be made to perform better with two...
Not for the time being, at least. Balanced is quite tempting but will require a different solution to work really well. In fact I had a proto which could be coverted to fully balanced configuration (not unbalanced volume with a balanced input and output, as in the first Klimax Kontrol), but for some reason it never got as good as I hoped.Linnofil wrote:Will it ever be possible to order a Kikkin with a balanced input?
Another problem with balanced is the large connectors... they require a larger back plate than my small enclosures offer.
Some Kikkin owners have found that the musical performance is slightly better when SLEEP is not activated (front panel light always on).
I can confirm that this is true. It's not a big difference, but it's there.
What I originally wanted to accomplish with the SLEEP function was to eliminate disturbances; both visually (the front light) and electronically. It turned out, however, that there was no sonic benefit to be obtained from shutting down the digital parts entirely. In fact, the digital power supply needs a little exercise to keep as quiet as possible.
We'll see if I can figure out a way of eliminating this difference in a future upgrade - because I know a lot of you listen with SLEEP enabled. I've already tried a lot of things, but for some reason the "favourite job" of that digital power supply is to keep the light on.
I can confirm that this is true. It's not a big difference, but it's there.
What I originally wanted to accomplish with the SLEEP function was to eliminate disturbances; both visually (the front light) and electronically. It turned out, however, that there was no sonic benefit to be obtained from shutting down the digital parts entirely. In fact, the digital power supply needs a little exercise to keep as quiet as possible.
We'll see if I can figure out a way of eliminating this difference in a future upgrade - because I know a lot of you listen with SLEEP enabled. I've already tried a lot of things, but for some reason the "favourite job" of that digital power supply is to keep the light on.
I've been trying out a Kikkin for the past week so thought I'd submit my initial impressions. Firstly, well done Fredrik on a great little music box! I think it looks very good - clean and smart - and it sits well with the rest of my system. The operation of the volume and the coloured LED is really neat.
Initial impressions on performance (having re-tuned my speakers):
Positives
* Musicality! It is very tuneful and musical straight out the box. It's obviously hard to be certain without direct comparason, but I would guess it's more musical than my old MK. I've not heard the AK, but don't think it can be far behind the old KK in this respect. Without Tune Dem comparason, I'd rate it too similar to be sure. I should add that I never found the upgrade from MK to old KK to be HUGE although it was worthwhile for sure.
* The Kikkin sounds real and orgainic and quite like the old KK in many ways. It doesn't have that plastic/fake sound of the Kolektor. The Kolektor reminds me of when I dem'd Linn amps around 1990 - tuneful, but very obviously a hi-fi and a bit odd sounding.
* It sounds inconspicuous (except one point below), so rarely draws attention to itself. This makes it very listenable and easy to just enjoy the music.
Negatives
* It sounds a bit soft and shut in, especially up top - certainly not as open and transparant as Linn's current range of amps. The KK/1 and MK are obviously very transparent, clear and open. The old KK is a little more laid back. The presentation of the Kikkin is probably more similar to the old KK, but with less detail and control. I'd say this is a weakness of omission though and not something that draws you away from the music.
* The treble, particularly cymbols, sometimes does draw my attention away from the music as it can be a little unrefined.
I think Frekrik has done an amazing job, especially in light of the price (which I've not taken into consideration in the above comments). Despite my KK/1 obviouly sounding much better and more musical, I'm finding the Kikkin very listenable indeed. I've been chopping and changing a little and not REALLY missing the KK/1 that much. I sometimes wonder how much better a song would sound on the KK/1, but in terms of simply enjoying my music, the Kikkin really delivers.
I'll be dem'ing Kikkin/Radikal LP12 vs KK1/Lingo LP12 in a couple of weeks and will let you know how I get on.
Initial impressions on performance (having re-tuned my speakers):
Positives
* Musicality! It is very tuneful and musical straight out the box. It's obviously hard to be certain without direct comparason, but I would guess it's more musical than my old MK. I've not heard the AK, but don't think it can be far behind the old KK in this respect. Without Tune Dem comparason, I'd rate it too similar to be sure. I should add that I never found the upgrade from MK to old KK to be HUGE although it was worthwhile for sure.
* The Kikkin sounds real and orgainic and quite like the old KK in many ways. It doesn't have that plastic/fake sound of the Kolektor. The Kolektor reminds me of when I dem'd Linn amps around 1990 - tuneful, but very obviously a hi-fi and a bit odd sounding.
* It sounds inconspicuous (except one point below), so rarely draws attention to itself. This makes it very listenable and easy to just enjoy the music.
Negatives
* It sounds a bit soft and shut in, especially up top - certainly not as open and transparant as Linn's current range of amps. The KK/1 and MK are obviously very transparent, clear and open. The old KK is a little more laid back. The presentation of the Kikkin is probably more similar to the old KK, but with less detail and control. I'd say this is a weakness of omission though and not something that draws you away from the music.
* The treble, particularly cymbols, sometimes does draw my attention away from the music as it can be a little unrefined.
I think Frekrik has done an amazing job, especially in light of the price (which I've not taken into consideration in the above comments). Despite my KK/1 obviouly sounding much better and more musical, I'm finding the Kikkin very listenable indeed. I've been chopping and changing a little and not REALLY missing the KK/1 that much. I sometimes wonder how much better a song would sound on the KK/1, but in terms of simply enjoying my music, the Kikkin really delivers.
I'll be dem'ing Kikkin/Radikal LP12 vs KK1/Lingo LP12 in a couple of weeks and will let you know how I get on.
I'm a Kikkin owner since a few weeks now. It sits between a Unidisk SC and C6100. It's really a fundamental increase in musicality compared to the preamp in SC on the level of making records I haven't cared so much about into great ones. I'm still excited by the change it makes to my record collection. I can agree that it may feel a little softer. If you take something like the opening battle scenes of Gladiator it may feel like a little less sonic fireworks than before. But it really brings out how good the music is in that movie. Sources like radio, TV-box and DVD-recorder are switched through the SC (the two latter digitally connected) and for LP I move the cable directly to Slipsik. It's worth that hassle if you look at the price of Akurate Kontrol (ok, AK has a phono stage and would likely bring more out of my DVD's with the SC digitally connected). The colors of the LED works very well in practice. This is a little gem and I would say the most impressive work from Fredrik so far.
I'm the happy owner of a second-hand Kikkin since a few days now, and I'm quite impressed with the performance of the little black box!
However, since I use it with more than one signal source I've got a question:
Should I switch the power of my units off before switching input cables in the back of the Kikkin? Or is it safe to leave the power of Kikkin/Amplifier/source on when doing this?
However, since I use it with more than one signal source I've got a question:
Should I switch the power of my units off before switching input cables in the back of the Kikkin? Or is it safe to leave the power of Kikkin/Amplifier/source on when doing this?
Hi Lemmy and welcome here!
If all your units in the system have their power cords connected to the same distribution block (so that their grounds are connected) and all units have an internal connection between signal ground and chassis (products from Linn do), then most likely you won't hear much more than a very faint "click" in the speakers when you disconnect the signal going into the Kikkin. If this is the case, then you are on the safe side of things.
I personally don't switch the Kikkin or anything else off when changing sources. But then I know exactly what I have connected to my system - and as you might understand, I can't recommend anyone else to do this or claim that it's 100% safe. It will be very difficult to damage the Kikkin, but when connecting/disconnecting cables in a live system, there is always the possibility that you'll end up with a loud bump or hum - something that potentially could cause damage (to your speakers, for instance).
There are certain cases when a disconnected unit floats at a voltage that differs from the rest of the system. When you connect such a unit to the system, there will be a sharp "bang". This is a sign of danger that should tell you not to do it again with the system powered up. If you have a TV, VCR or radio with a central antenna in the house, the antenna connection might give this effect.
If everything is quiet when you connect/disconnect, then it's unlikely that anything will be damaged.
I hope my answer makes sense, otherwise please tell and I'll try again. :)
If all your units in the system have their power cords connected to the same distribution block (so that their grounds are connected) and all units have an internal connection between signal ground and chassis (products from Linn do), then most likely you won't hear much more than a very faint "click" in the speakers when you disconnect the signal going into the Kikkin. If this is the case, then you are on the safe side of things.
I personally don't switch the Kikkin or anything else off when changing sources. But then I know exactly what I have connected to my system - and as you might understand, I can't recommend anyone else to do this or claim that it's 100% safe. It will be very difficult to damage the Kikkin, but when connecting/disconnecting cables in a live system, there is always the possibility that you'll end up with a loud bump or hum - something that potentially could cause damage (to your speakers, for instance).
There are certain cases when a disconnected unit floats at a voltage that differs from the rest of the system. When you connect such a unit to the system, there will be a sharp "bang". This is a sign of danger that should tell you not to do it again with the system powered up. If you have a TV, VCR or radio with a central antenna in the house, the antenna connection might give this effect.
If everything is quiet when you connect/disconnect, then it's unlikely that anything will be damaged.
I hope my answer makes sense, otherwise please tell and I'll try again. :)
Had the Kikkin a couple of weeks now. There has been a little burn in I think. Not sure I can describe the effect - just more satisfying somehow. It really is quite superb value for money and a level of performance way above it's price. It could be sold for quite a lot more and still represent great value. Very happy and hopeful it will be an easy dem on Friday.
Yes it was. I don't want to hijack this thread with my own system stuff, so will add more detail under the My System section. Peter at Cymbiosis said he was very impressed by the Kikkin and that it was well built.Linnofil wrote:I'm sure it will be! SmileCharlie1 wrote:wrote:
hopeful it will be an easy dem on Friday.
Just for clarity, I do not find the Kikkin better than a KK/1 in case anyone is misunderstanding this. The KK/1 is hugely superior to the Kikkin, and at 15 times the price it should be, BUT because the Kikkin is such excellent value for money, I can get a better system OVERALL by downgrading my pre which will in turn fund a Radikal and even a Urika (if I wanted to). I also bought my KK second hand so don't feel I'm throwing money away - in fact I should break even in that respect, although I will loose a little on the KK/1 upgrade.
Just to add on with what Charlie1 says about the Kikkin.Charlie1 wrote:Yes it was. I don't want to hijack this thread with my own system stuff, so will add more detail under the My System section. Peter at Cymbiosis said he was very impressed by the Kikkin and that it was well built.Linnofil wrote:I'm sure it will be! SmileCharlie1 wrote:wrote:
hopeful it will be an easy dem on Friday.
Just for clarity, I do not find the Kikkin better than a KK/1 in case anyone is misunderstanding this. The KK/1 is hugely superior to the Kikkin, and at 15 times the price it should be, BUT because the Kikkin is such excellent value for money, I can get a better system OVERALL by downgrading my pre which will in turn fund a Radikal and even a Urika (if I wanted to). I also bought my KK second hand so don't feel I'm throwing money away - in fact I should break even in that respect, although I will loose a little on the KK/1 upgrade.
I took this with me when I had a demo on a LP12SE and the dealers said that it was very good and would allow a person ie myself to go for a top end source. I ended up with the KDS ,without the additional expense of a linn pre-amp . The Kikkin is excellent in performance and value.
Starman
Having lived with a Kikkin for some time and recently corrected the phase into the speakers, I thought it only fair to update this topic. I did read both Fredrik’s email ref the phase inversion and also read it in the manual, but still managed to get it wrong. Sorry about that!
I have to say that with the Radikal upgrade in place the system sounds better than ever before. I can’t fault it in any way, which is not the same as saying it can’t be improved, but there is nothing staring me in the face each time I listen.
Since my KK/1 is still not sold, I’ve taken the bold step of trying it out with the Radikal in place. I’m not saying this to be nice to Fredrik, but counter to my expectations the gap seems less now than it was previously, at least in terms on sound quality. I did give the Kikkin the advantage in not re-tuning the speakers for the KK/1, but yes I did change the phase back for the KK.
They are not greatly dissimilar in presentation, both organic and real and both sound excellent. The KK/1 goes noticeably deeper with slightly better control, but they seem pretty close in terms of quality. I actually find the KK/1 bass a bit too deep for my room/system with some tracks. I wonder if my C6100 is really not up to what the KK/1 is able to deliver – this was previously a minor issue when the speakers WERE tuned to the KK/1.
The KK/1 is more open up top, but the Kikkin no longer sounds slightly shut-in by comparison. It’s actually very well balanced, albeit the quality is not so good as the KK/1, but never draws attention to itself in any way. The Kikkin also gets closer to the KK/1s superior speed and dynamics this time around.
The KK/1 is more musical and easier to follow a tune. Everything flows better and is more together, but the gap is not sufficient to make up for the musical improvements brought about by the Radikal. It’s worth reminding ourselves that the KK/1 is about 15x the price, so had better be musically superior. It’s also worth mentioning that by selling the KK/1 I not only purchase a Radikal, but put some money in the bank. I could have instead bought a Urika and further improved the front end.
Maybe I’d think the gap bigger if I lived with the KK/1 again and then went back to the Kikkin, but in the context of my system (6100, Ninkas) I’m not feeling in any way sad to be losing the KK/1. Maybe a pair of Solos and 242s would tell a different story, but who knows. Also, I think as a general rule of thumb the longer you listen the more you notice, so I’m happy to leave it there ;o)
I hope Fredrik doesn’t mind my comparing his Kikkin to a massively more expensive pre-amp, but the Kikkin does so well and is a great way to achieve sound way beyond its price point. I’m confident that it could stay in someone’s system through many source upgrades without being a bottleneck or alternatively offer a route to new source upgrades that wouldn’t be possible otherwise as I have done.
I have to say that with the Radikal upgrade in place the system sounds better than ever before. I can’t fault it in any way, which is not the same as saying it can’t be improved, but there is nothing staring me in the face each time I listen.
Since my KK/1 is still not sold, I’ve taken the bold step of trying it out with the Radikal in place. I’m not saying this to be nice to Fredrik, but counter to my expectations the gap seems less now than it was previously, at least in terms on sound quality. I did give the Kikkin the advantage in not re-tuning the speakers for the KK/1, but yes I did change the phase back for the KK.
They are not greatly dissimilar in presentation, both organic and real and both sound excellent. The KK/1 goes noticeably deeper with slightly better control, but they seem pretty close in terms of quality. I actually find the KK/1 bass a bit too deep for my room/system with some tracks. I wonder if my C6100 is really not up to what the KK/1 is able to deliver – this was previously a minor issue when the speakers WERE tuned to the KK/1.
The KK/1 is more open up top, but the Kikkin no longer sounds slightly shut-in by comparison. It’s actually very well balanced, albeit the quality is not so good as the KK/1, but never draws attention to itself in any way. The Kikkin also gets closer to the KK/1s superior speed and dynamics this time around.
The KK/1 is more musical and easier to follow a tune. Everything flows better and is more together, but the gap is not sufficient to make up for the musical improvements brought about by the Radikal. It’s worth reminding ourselves that the KK/1 is about 15x the price, so had better be musically superior. It’s also worth mentioning that by selling the KK/1 I not only purchase a Radikal, but put some money in the bank. I could have instead bought a Urika and further improved the front end.
Maybe I’d think the gap bigger if I lived with the KK/1 again and then went back to the Kikkin, but in the context of my system (6100, Ninkas) I’m not feeling in any way sad to be losing the KK/1. Maybe a pair of Solos and 242s would tell a different story, but who knows. Also, I think as a general rule of thumb the longer you listen the more you notice, so I’m happy to leave it there ;o)
I hope Fredrik doesn’t mind my comparing his Kikkin to a massively more expensive pre-amp, but the Kikkin does so well and is a great way to achieve sound way beyond its price point. I’m confident that it could stay in someone’s system through many source upgrades without being a bottleneck or alternatively offer a route to new source upgrades that wouldn’t be possible otherwise as I have done.
Great piece of work Charlie..I must agree with the last conclusion as I think a lot of Lp12 customers were peeved off with the price of the upgrades because they had splashed out on more expensive stuff downstream .do you enjoy music more on the kk1 or do you just notice improvements?
I know that tune
KK/1 is clearly better musically, no tune dem required there. It's obvious that the music is much easier to interpret. Unfortunately, we don't have any means of measuring the 'gap' between the two, so that's all I can say. But yes I enjoy music more on the KK/1.Lego wrote:do you enjoy music more on the kk1 or do you just notice improvements?
But as a system, the KK1/Lingo is much weaker musically then Kikkin/Radikal and also doesn't sound so good to my ears. The benefits of KK/1 over Kikkin fed via a Lingo LP12 were great and in the context of Klimax kit the KK/1 upgrade represented good value for money. And with better playback I'd probably have noticed an even bigger improvement. However, what the Radikal does is way too significant and no pre-amp will ever make up for that. Also consider that it is unfair to the Kikkin/Radikal system in that I'm getting £2k back in the bank. I could instead buy a Urika with the money left over and further extend the gap between systems.
I think the benefits of applying Source First theory to system building can vary in magnitude quite a lot. But the combo of superb bang for buck of the Kikkin and massive performance leap of Radikal represents a great example of how source first can help you build the most musical system within a budget - in fact under budget :D
My friend Billy came round this morning with darkroom gear he had promised me(off topic I know)..he also brought round his new Kikken which had just arrived..so we were both going to listen to it for the first time..which is nice. :)
I did the old close my eyes and pulled out an album and it happened to be an old crackly Augustus Pablo ..Billy likes his hifi loud so turned the wick up and listened to Kairn; sounded good but a bit crackly and the volume set wouldn't have been sustainable for me,after a couple of minutes we changed over to the Kikken.
As soon as the needle touched the record I knew there would be no contest, there seemed to be less surface noise before the music had started...
My first surprise was that all the energy(from the musicians) , emotion and boogieness that we get from Linns products was still there but even more so with the Kikken ..the musicians seemed less rushed and more up for it, tho' I did get a feeling they were standing closer together!? Weird but an illusion I like a lot..more in time .The issue of high volume disappeared...the louder it went the more tunefull it sounded with no fatigue;a big plus.
With the Kairn the bass on this track sounded too full due to where my Ninkas are placed,close to the wall,which I like.The kikken made the bass tighter,deeper and more tunefull and no bloom ;more reggae like in this instance..Our conclusion was we could easily have sat there all day playing records.all this in 10 mins..I'm sure your new passive amps will trounce my aktiv Klouts Fredrik.....its 'found out' time for expensive hifi companys.
Ivor!! your Kairn has taken a beating.
I am one of the few Kairn nuts left(listened to a brilliant upgrade and 5103..wasnt that impressed) and have never felt that the money needed to beat it was worth it,until now.
Maybe I should get a brilliant power supply upgrade for the kairn..I mean the improvement is Huuuuge apparently...and it only costs...dont make me laugh
:lol:
I did the old close my eyes and pulled out an album and it happened to be an old crackly Augustus Pablo ..Billy likes his hifi loud so turned the wick up and listened to Kairn; sounded good but a bit crackly and the volume set wouldn't have been sustainable for me,after a couple of minutes we changed over to the Kikken.
As soon as the needle touched the record I knew there would be no contest, there seemed to be less surface noise before the music had started...
My first surprise was that all the energy(from the musicians) , emotion and boogieness that we get from Linns products was still there but even more so with the Kikken ..the musicians seemed less rushed and more up for it, tho' I did get a feeling they were standing closer together!? Weird but an illusion I like a lot..more in time .The issue of high volume disappeared...the louder it went the more tunefull it sounded with no fatigue;a big plus.
With the Kairn the bass on this track sounded too full due to where my Ninkas are placed,close to the wall,which I like.The kikken made the bass tighter,deeper and more tunefull and no bloom ;more reggae like in this instance..Our conclusion was we could easily have sat there all day playing records.all this in 10 mins..I'm sure your new passive amps will trounce my aktiv Klouts Fredrik.....its 'found out' time for expensive hifi companys.
Ivor!! your Kairn has taken a beating.
I am one of the few Kairn nuts left(listened to a brilliant upgrade and 5103..wasnt that impressed) and have never felt that the money needed to beat it was worth it,until now.
Maybe I should get a brilliant power supply upgrade for the kairn..I mean the improvement is Huuuuge apparently...and it only costs...dont make me laugh
:lol:
I know that tune
Listened to Kikken again at Billys..he doesnt trust his ears..he thought it sounded better at my place..that was because he was comparing it with the kairn..Again I loved it;this time it was Karik III Numerik pushing things along,Ive always found the Karik a bit mechanical sounding but this time I didnt notice; too busy listening to the music.
We listened to that fabulous Steely Dan track Haitian Divorce and there's a great guitar solo in it that represents this lady having sex..with the kikken it sounded as if she was having Great Sex 8)
I didnt realise how good the karik was or is..really lifts your spirits.
Reminds me of a quote from comedian Bob Monkehouse..
'My friends laughed at me when I said I was going to be a comedian.....They're not laughing now'
We listened to that fabulous Steely Dan track Haitian Divorce and there's a great guitar solo in it that represents this lady having sex..with the kikken it sounded as if she was having Great Sex 8)
I didnt realise how good the karik was or is..really lifts your spirits.
Reminds me of a quote from comedian Bob Monkehouse..
'My friends laughed at me when I said I was going to be a comedian.....They're not laughing now'
I know that tune
:lol:Lego wrote:'My friends laughed at me when I said I was going to be a comedian.....They're not laughing now'
Thank you for your comments, Lego! I'm glad you both like it.
Please note that the shelf on which the Kikkin stands affects its performance slightly. This isn't a fault, as all high quality amplifiers behave the same. Even Klimax cases. And the more I improved the Kikkin when it was being designed, the more it benefitted from being placed on a good support.
Some have commented that when they've moved the Kikkin/Slipsik/Kinki from near the edge of a shelf to a more central position (away from the supporting legs or columns), it's sounded clearly better. The funny thing is that if you knock on the support and listen to the sound it makes, you'll get an idea of the kind of slight colouration the sound of your amplifier will get.
I can understand this phenomenon with turntables, but that it works in the same (although the effect is less pronounced) way with amplifiers is a bit surprising. Power amplifiers are clearly affected the least.
The arrangement of the phono connectors at the back is a bit unconventional, yes. Instead of one pair being left+right, it's in+out. This arrangement is used on both Kikkin, Slipsik and Kinki.
The reason for this is to gain a bit of performance. It works like this: These connector pairs always have a common ground, because the two golden parts you see just above eachother are actually one single piece of metal.
Now, as Kikkin/Slipsik/Kinki has only two in and two out, it's better to separate left and right channel grounds instead of, with the conventional arrangement, separating in from out.
I spent a lot of time trying to order a custom made phono connector with grounds and colours in the way I wanted, but it was impossible. The company that makes the connectors that I use simply refused, regardless of the quantity I ordered. :( And none of the other connectors that I've tried sound as good as this specific model does. So I didn't bother asking any other company.
The choice became to either remain conventional or to gain a little sound quality. Naturally, I chose the latter.
The reason for this is to gain a bit of performance. It works like this: These connector pairs always have a common ground, because the two golden parts you see just above eachother are actually one single piece of metal.
Now, as Kikkin/Slipsik/Kinki has only two in and two out, it's better to separate left and right channel grounds instead of, with the conventional arrangement, separating in from out.
I spent a lot of time trying to order a custom made phono connector with grounds and colours in the way I wanted, but it was impossible. The company that makes the connectors that I use simply refused, regardless of the quantity I ordered. :( And none of the other connectors that I've tried sound as good as this specific model does. So I didn't bother asking any other company.
The choice became to either remain conventional or to gain a little sound quality. Naturally, I chose the latter.
Kikin
This thread is making me very interested in the kikkin. I'm in the market for an upgrade and was tending toward replacing my Kairn (SMPS) with an Akurate Kontrol! I only have a single source (LP12 and karik decomissioned) since I bought an Akurate DS last year. I love the ADS and would like to add the dynamic PSU - preferably get a free one in the great summer sale. I'd appreciate opinions on the following system options:-
Current System Akurate DS (non dyn) > kairn (SMPS) > LK100 > Keilidhs
1) Replace Kairn with Akurate Kontrol and add Dyn to ADS or
2) Replace Kairn with kikkin and replace LK100 with something like a Akurate 2200 / Majik 2100 and add Dyn to ADS
Both cost about the same. Thoughts?
Current System Akurate DS (non dyn) > kairn (SMPS) > LK100 > Keilidhs
1) Replace Kairn with Akurate Kontrol and add Dyn to ADS or
2) Replace Kairn with kikkin and replace LK100 with something like a Akurate 2200 / Majik 2100 and add Dyn to ADS
Both cost about the same. Thoughts?