Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
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Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
I've updated the link I posted a few days ago to the Computer Audiophile discussion regarding an Ethernet "regenerator" under development as the posts over there have been moved into their own thread. New link is here:
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/foru ... tions-yet/
Will be fascinating to see what findings and measurements come out of this in the coming weeks / months but the discussion is already moving on with a few hints and thoughts about what mechanisms are at play within and between network components that are impacting audio performance. This, for example, by John Swenson, the guy doing the testing and development of this:
"Why is the clean output 10/100 not gigabit? Because it is much cleaner to do so. A significant amount of jitter on a Ethernet cable come from noise on the power/ground (PG) networks inside the chip. The more stuff is going on and the faster it is doing it, the more noise gets generated on the PG network. Gigabit has way more stuff going on inside, thus generates a lot more noise, which causes significantly more jitter. By keeping it down to 100 the clean port has much lower jitter"
Just going back to the paragraph from the TI white paper I posted previously:
"The timing variations in signal edges from their ideal values is called Jitter. With the increase in data rates,
jitter has become important factor in system design. A clock with high jitter can cause performance
degradation in Ethernet subsystem such as compliance failures, high Bit Error Rate etc. Clock jitter can be
caused due to factors such as thermal noise, power supply variations, loading conditions, device nosie
and interference coupled from other circuit on the subsystem."
What this means in practice is that noise inside the transmitting device, e.g. a NAS, can cause an increase in clock jitter on the Ethernet output. So for example, different hard-drive, different processor, different main-board, etc will all contribute differently to the amount and type of noise within the device and therefore can all potentially impact the amount of jitter in the Ethernet output from that (transmitting) device.
Going back to my previous posts attempting to explain how increased levels of jitter on the Ethernet input to a receiving device can contribute to additional amounts of noise present within that device ... if you append this mechanism to the mechanism described in the paragraph above, it explains, hopefully, how an analogue concept like noise in one device, can move to a downstream device over a digital connection (Ethernet, USB, firewire, SPDIF) by the process of noise being converted to jitter and jitter being converted back into noise, which itself can be converted back to jitter if that noise gets into clocks inside the receiving device.
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/foru ... tions-yet/
Will be fascinating to see what findings and measurements come out of this in the coming weeks / months but the discussion is already moving on with a few hints and thoughts about what mechanisms are at play within and between network components that are impacting audio performance. This, for example, by John Swenson, the guy doing the testing and development of this:
"Why is the clean output 10/100 not gigabit? Because it is much cleaner to do so. A significant amount of jitter on a Ethernet cable come from noise on the power/ground (PG) networks inside the chip. The more stuff is going on and the faster it is doing it, the more noise gets generated on the PG network. Gigabit has way more stuff going on inside, thus generates a lot more noise, which causes significantly more jitter. By keeping it down to 100 the clean port has much lower jitter"
Just going back to the paragraph from the TI white paper I posted previously:
"The timing variations in signal edges from their ideal values is called Jitter. With the increase in data rates,
jitter has become important factor in system design. A clock with high jitter can cause performance
degradation in Ethernet subsystem such as compliance failures, high Bit Error Rate etc. Clock jitter can be
caused due to factors such as thermal noise, power supply variations, loading conditions, device nosie
and interference coupled from other circuit on the subsystem."
What this means in practice is that noise inside the transmitting device, e.g. a NAS, can cause an increase in clock jitter on the Ethernet output. So for example, different hard-drive, different processor, different main-board, etc will all contribute differently to the amount and type of noise within the device and therefore can all potentially impact the amount of jitter in the Ethernet output from that (transmitting) device.
Going back to my previous posts attempting to explain how increased levels of jitter on the Ethernet input to a receiving device can contribute to additional amounts of noise present within that device ... if you append this mechanism to the mechanism described in the paragraph above, it explains, hopefully, how an analogue concept like noise in one device, can move to a downstream device over a digital connection (Ethernet, USB, firewire, SPDIF) by the process of noise being converted to jitter and jitter being converted back into noise, which itself can be converted back to jitter if that noise gets into clocks inside the receiving device.
Last edited by Music at Home on 2018-04-03 23:29, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Thanks Music at Home!
I'll be following that thread at computeraudiophile with interest, as an "Ethernet regenerator" is exactly what I wish was possible, but so far haven't found any paths to.
If it indeed becomes possible, there's still multiple challenges at other points in the digital chain. But with challenges comes possibilities. I think our digital music players can be made to perform a lot better in the future.
I'll be following that thread at computeraudiophile with interest, as an "Ethernet regenerator" is exactly what I wish was possible, but so far haven't found any paths to.
If it indeed becomes possible, there's still multiple challenges at other points in the digital chain. But with challenges comes possibilities. I think our digital music players can be made to perform a lot better in the future.
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Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Analogue signals:
One device is connected to another = nobody dispute the fact that disturbances can enter the devices from the cable, affecting the performance.
Digital signals:
Suddenly... MOST people consider it impossible to affect the performance as long as the data is received correctly.
I have some difficulties understanding this.
Remember:
- A cable is a cable = can transmit disturbances, regardless of the information transmitted
- A digital signal is represented by analogue signals and interpreted by the receiving device = it’s analog signals entering and managed by the device
- data and information are two different items = Data integrity is not an issue (data arrived and interpreted correctly) but information is easy to degrade.
One device is connected to another = nobody dispute the fact that disturbances can enter the devices from the cable, affecting the performance.
Digital signals:
Suddenly... MOST people consider it impossible to affect the performance as long as the data is received correctly.
I have some difficulties understanding this.
Remember:
- A cable is a cable = can transmit disturbances, regardless of the information transmitted
- A digital signal is represented by analogue signals and interpreted by the receiving device = it’s analog signals entering and managed by the device
- data and information are two different items = Data integrity is not an issue (data arrived and interpreted correctly) but information is easy to degrade.
It's all about musical understanding!
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Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Absolutely.Music at Home wrote:Yes, this has nothing whatsoever to do with data errors, checksums, resending, etc. There are mechanism that have audible impacts that are totally independent of 100% bit accuracy delivered to the DAC. This was covered a page or two back.
Just to re-iterate though, this kind of jitter is not a cause of data errors. That's because the receiving device is constantly adjusting itself to keep track of the varying clock frequency on the incoming waveform in order that the encdoded data is 100% recovered, without errors occurring or resending being necessary. A secondary effect of that is that noise is generated in the network interface that makes it's way into analogue stages, or the clock circuit feeding the DAC chip.
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Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Interesting news from Munich High End 2018:
https://darko.audio/2018/05/kih-57-a-lead-on-leedh/
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ ... 018/9.html
Matt
https://darko.audio/2018/05/kih-57-a-lead-on-leedh/
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ ... 018/9.html
Matt
Matt
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Thanks Matthias,
Isn’t Linn Katalyst now lossless, or at least down to lowish volumes? I guess that isn’t helping the streaming companies though.
Pls excuse any daft comments. I’m interested but don’t understand some of this tech very well.
Isn’t Linn Katalyst now lossless, or at least down to lowish volumes? I guess that isn’t helping the streaming companies though.
Pls excuse any daft comments. I’m interested but don’t understand some of this tech very well.
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
The Linn DVC is not lossless, but in the linked articles it is claimed that the new Milot code is lossless.Charlie1 wrote: Isn’t Linn Katalyst now lossless, or at least down to lowish volumes? I guess that isn’t helping the streaming companies though.
Matt
Matt
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
I recommend everyone who's followed this thread to read about HAKAI - the world class digital network streamer that you can build yourself:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4251
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4251
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Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Anyone?
Does anyone want to build mine? Lol
That is certainly very interesting and does this mean your project is now dead Fredrik?
Does anyone want to build mine? Lol
That is certainly very interesting and does this mean your project is now dead Fredrik?
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Lejonklou demos available in the N of England.
Lejonklou demos available in the N of England.
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Interesting to read about Naim's design principles of their top streamer+DAC:
https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default ... inal_0.pdf
Matt
https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default ... inal_0.pdf
Matt
Matt
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Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
For all of us without time reading on the Net, a short summary will be hugely appreciated.matthias wrote:Interesting to read about Naim's design principles of their top streamer+DAC:
https://www.naimaudio.com/sites/default ... inal_0.pdf
Matt
It's all about musical understanding!
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
After a Lejonklou demo in Göteborg we discussed Hakai and DACs. Fredrik was not too interested in making a Lejonklou USB DAC because "the streamer is much more important, the DAC is as the pickup in a vinyl playback system". But you are doing phono amps so why not do a killer DAC to be used with different streamers? If it's just close to Slipsik 7 in quality and price I would buy it!
Last edited by TMV on 2019-05-26 09:39, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Good point. And I would expect much fewer development headaches than a streamer.
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Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Manufacturer, Distributor, Retailer and above all lover of music.
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
I agree with Thomas, really good point :-)TMV wrote: ↑2019-05-25 16:49 After a Lejonklou demo in Göteborg we discussed Hakai and DACs. Fredrik was not too interested in making a Lejonklou USB DAC because "the streamer is much more important, the DAC is as the pickup in a vinyl playback system". But you are doing phono amps so why not do a killer DAC to be used with different streamers? If it's just close to Slipsik 7 in quality and price I would buy it!
Fredrik, try the new AK4499 chip, when it is available.. It is more musical than the AK4497 Linn use in Klimax Katalyst.
I compared them at HE Munich this year.
Matt
Matt
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Ah, interesting!
I have the AK4497 but haven't heard the 4499. Even better sounds promising. There are also some other new chips around and then there's R2R DACs, which require an extreme amount of precision in the resistors, but this is already something I'm into, so not really a problem.
The issue for me is that indeed the DAC is like the cartridge on a turntable - the converter of acceleration to current or of a digital stream to current (or voltage) - but where is the LP12 of digital transports?
The answer is that there is none, except maybe HAKAI. Most people will feed the killer DAC to the equivalent of a Shrap plastic turntable and be disappointed with the result. So the main product to develop is in my view rather the unit that can handle various streaming services and/or locally stored files and in a faithful manner deliver its audio stream to a DAC. And then even a Gigaport at 16/44, just like an AT-95E, will sound magnificent. And, yes, a killer DAC would be even better, but what do you propose to feed it with?
I have the AK4497 but haven't heard the 4499. Even better sounds promising. There are also some other new chips around and then there's R2R DACs, which require an extreme amount of precision in the resistors, but this is already something I'm into, so not really a problem.
The issue for me is that indeed the DAC is like the cartridge on a turntable - the converter of acceleration to current or of a digital stream to current (or voltage) - but where is the LP12 of digital transports?
The answer is that there is none, except maybe HAKAI. Most people will feed the killer DAC to the equivalent of a Shrap plastic turntable and be disappointed with the result. So the main product to develop is in my view rather the unit that can handle various streaming services and/or locally stored files and in a faithful manner deliver its audio stream to a DAC. And then even a Gigaport at 16/44, just like an AT-95E, will sound magnificent. And, yes, a killer DAC would be even better, but what do you propose to feed it with?
Re: Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer
Maybe this one?
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ ... 8me.27433/
Some points in this thread are VERY interesting.
They prefer to listen to it with TotalDAC, which is a R2R DAC.
Someone should listen to it with the ESI.
IMO, Emile, the guy behind it is serious.
Matt
Matt
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677