Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer

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jlrchrds
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by jlrchrds »

It's one heck of a task given that digital - always - sounds inconsistent at my home. I've further compounded my digital issues by going Exakt a few years back. I appreciate the difficulty of this task; too bad you couldn't partner with Linn to sharing research resources and findings but I don't think that's part of their game. Anyway, this is a really insightful thread Frederik. Thanks. Jeff
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Spannko »

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

So it appears that designing a world class digital front end is no mean feat! However, I wish you luck with your journey.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Stephan »

Hello!

I have followed this thread closely. My recommendations is as follows:

Try to integrate and control all parts that affect musical qualities in the solution. If the NAS and ethernet communication is vital for quality it should be in your streamer, this is the simplest and perhaps only way to guarantee superior performance

Remove all dependencies on Tidal, Spotify iOS and other connections that needs software support.
Reason for this is simple. If you sell a streamer that have support for e.g. Tidal you will at the same time commit yourself to an potentially infinite load of software updates, programming and verifications, bug fixes...

Reduce, lock and freeze the product as much as possible.
Look at it as a digital LP12, it can only play one format, only play locally stored music, needs a bit of work to start playing a record, but it always work, and keeps a high performance level with a small amount of service and care, stable and bullet proof
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Stephan wrote: Remove all dependencies on Tidal, Spotify iOS and other connections that needs software support.
Reason for this is simple. If you sell a streamer that have support for e.g. Tidal you will at the same time commit yourself to an potentially infinite load of software updates, programming and verifications, bug fixes...

....... only play locally stored music,
Sorry Stephan,
but there are guys like me who want to squeeze the best out of streaming services like Qobuz and Tidal.

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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Music at Home »

How about a single digital input for anything other than locally stored rips, such as Tidal, etc. Let some external box take care of that aspect. The digital input circuit could be switched off for those not needing it.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Stephan »

if I understand correctly what Fredrik wrote, l come to the conclusion that a product mirroring the functonality of a Linn streamer, would require perhaps one or two full time employees only working with software uppgrades/bugfixes/testing and musical evaluation.
This is probably the amount of work that Linn spend. It does not matter if you sells 50 units or 50000 units

I think that if this is going to be a product att all it will need to be limited on funtionality.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Charlie1 »

Stephan wrote:Reduce, lock and freeze the product as much as possible.
Look at it as a digital LP12, it can only play one format, only play locally stored music, needs a bit of work to start playing a record, but it always work, and keeps a high performance level with a small amount of service and care, stable and bullet proof
Yes, maybe this is the only way for the time being. Probably not what everyone was hoping for, incl Fredrik, but it makes sense and would fit the Lejonklou ethos.

Plus there is a lot to be said for something that works consistently. I hate IT related issues in the home. I just don't need the hassle. Music should be fun, not a drag and a pain in the butt.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Maybe,
but I do not want to buy and own music as long as I can get the music I like via high quality streaming.
So I need no NAS.

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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Charlie1 »

Stephan wrote:If the NAS and ethernet communication is vital for quality it should be in your streamer, this is the simplest and perhaps only way to guarantee superior performance
What about consistency of supply though? I doubt any NAS or it's components stay in production very long. Surely Fredrik needs his parts supply to stay available for as many years as possible.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Charlie1 wrote:
Stephan wrote:If the NAS and ethernet communication is vital for quality it should be in your streamer, this is the simplest and perhaps only way to guarantee superior performance
What about consistency of supply though? I doubt any NAS or it's components stay in production very long. Surely Fredrik needs his parts supply to stay available for as many years as possible.
The problem is that a streamer has computer parts inside and these are rapidly changing.

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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Stephan »

Yes, I know component supply is an issue with very fast lifecycles for some electronic parts. The server/storage module could be designed as a separate PCB, that could be replaced or changed without affecting the streamer/DAC part.
I realise it sounds stupid trying to design something that can be bought anywhere for small money, but if the storage/server part is key to performance then it should be optimised.

I think Naim is working a bit with these type of products, could be something to look into.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Stephan wrote:The server/storage module could be designed as a separate PCB, that could be replaced or changed without affecting the streamer/DAC part.
Yes, I like the idea to have several modules for storage, streaming, power supply and maybe DAC.

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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by sunbeamgls »

Thanks for such an in depth update Frederik. Its fascinating to read the thoughts and challenges.
Its great to read about how you are finding stuff that doesn't follow what some consider hard and fast rules about digital. Those who say its just 1s and 0s and they exist or don't exist or those who think software outside the musical functionality has no effect on the music (possibly it doesn't, but we know software often contains unintentional effects, otherwise bugs would not exist and patching would not be necessary). Your experiences also reflect the experiences of those amongst us who have swapped out network components or their power supplies, ethernet cables or who have found benefit in the likes of Melco or Innuos servers.

So as you test the elements you can affect, what have you settled on to keep the rest as musical as possible from your steamer's ethernet port back up the chain? A paricular cable / switch / NAS or server?

For those who are interested in optimising streaming from services outside the home, Im afraid its never likely to achieve the same level of performanceas home ripped and stored music. Tidal for sure, and probably others, apply watermarking to the music leaving distortion in the music, and source first being what it is, this can't be recovered later, no matter how good the streamer. My kids both like to listen to their music in decent quality, but they never buy it and probably never will. So that's the legacy we're passing on to them with the 'advances' our generation have created - to listen to music that they pay to listen to but which has been deliberately screwed up. At least they're not listening to MP3s, which is probably why they choose to listen to music rather than just treating it as a background.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Ozzzy189 »

Interesting, I've found some mp3's to be pretty enjoyable to listen to and relatively musical, obviously not as good as the higher quality files but enjoyable nonetheless.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Ozzzy189 wrote:Interesting, I've found some mp3's to be pretty enjoyable to listen to and relatively musical, obviously not as good as the higher quality files but enjoyable nonetheless.
Yes,
IMO, some music from Spotify MP3 streaming is quite musical.

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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Fredrik,
just a suggestion:
What do you think about working together with Audirvana for your streamer?
Audirvana is a software player which works at the moment on the Mac platform but is soon to be released on Windows 10 too. It has full integration of the best streaming services like Tidal and Qobuz and allows direct output via USB to a DAC or via UPnP/DLNA to a streamer. High-end companies like Sonore are working together with Audirvana. And the costs for the consumer are reasonable.
You could fully concentrate on the hardware part and leave things like platform and streaming integration to Audirvana.

https://audirvana.com/?page_id=3450

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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you for the tip, Matthias!

I've tried establishing a collaboration with another company that makes similar software. A reoccurring problem is that the software influences musicality very heavily and it's often not the sections related to the actual handling of the music signal that matters most. So when I report that the latest patch is a big downgrade, the music lost its flow, it can be very difficult for the programmers to accept that fact (to me it's a fact but to them only something strange that I report) when all they did was to fix a couple of annoying bugs in the interface.

In other words, it's not possible to reach the absolute heights that I'm looking for without a very tight collaboration between software and hardware teams. Every part of a new version of the software needs to be evaluated by ear - and when something has a negative impact, it needs to be redone in a different way until it sounds right. Not many software teams are interested in something even remotely resembling that kind of scenario.

In addition, I'm not fond of using Windows as the operating system of a streamer. It's very difficult to get any control over it.

Sorry to be so negative, I am actually searching for a solution. Will check what audirvana does!
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Fredrik,
thanks for your feedback.
I completely understand your position, think the same about Windows.
I mean Audirvana has a few partners only (in contrast to Roon which is VERY expensive btw), so the collaboration could be tight.
And maybe a win-win-situation also for Audirvana to go in the right (tuneful) direction.

Please keep us informed.

Matt

PS.: I found this looking for Audirvana:
https://www.on-mag.fr/index.php/topaudi ... Vw.twitter
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by KalleW »

Yes I agree, Roon is expensive, but it gives a unique integration of locally stored and streamed material, and it's for some of us actually worth the cost in the long term. They have also developed a simple one-purpose OS, Roon ROCK, which is free of charge. Is that a possible OS for your streamer?
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

KalleW wrote:Yes I agree, Roon is expensive, but it gives a unique integration of locally stored and streamed material.......
Yes, Roon is (too) expensive for my liking and it does not support Qobuz or Qobuz does not support Roon.
SQ-wise Roon is not superior to Audirvana.

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Last edited by matthias on 2017-11-15 11:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

KalleW wrote:Yes I agree, Roon is expensive, but it gives a unique integration of locally stored and streamed material, and it's for some of us actually worth the cost in the long term. They have also developed a simple one-purpose OS, Roon ROCK, which is free of charge. Is that a possible OS for your streamer?
Thank you Kalle!

I've read about Roon ROCK and the fact that it's based on a minimalist Linux OS feels good. It needs to be evaluated against the other, now at least four, alternatives I'm currently looking at. The risk with a free operating system, which Roon will continue to develop independently of me and owners of my streamer can upgrade whenever they like, is that performance and/or stability could be lost at any point. Owners would then have to check with one another (for instance on this forum) which version of ROCK is best and/or safe to install. My wish was to make such caution unnecessary.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Fredrik,
maybe you visited this room at RMAF 2017:

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/11/ ... ime-sound/

They played music via Audirvana.

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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote:Fredrik,
maybe you visited this room at RMAF 2017:

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/11/ ... ime-sound/

They played music via Audirvana.

Matt
Sorry, I didn't.

There was a LOT of rooms and I only had time to visit a handful.
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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Now after streaming services like Qobuz or Tidal offer the complete catalogue of ECM records at least in redbook quality I am no more interested in buying and downloading music files for storing in something like a NAS at home.
For me it would be enough if a Lejonklou streamer gives me similar functions like this small device from Sonore, maybe with an integrated power supply:

http://www.sonore.us/ultraRendu.html

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Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

We had that discussion in the Stream Team last week: How the streaming services are continually increasing their catalogues and less and less people are interested in storing albums on a NAS.

There still seem to be some gaps, though. A customer who collects old jazz (not sure what kind exactly) told me his NAS will remain his most important main musical library for many years to come. Do you guys think the streaming services will incorporate also the really narrow fields of interest?

I would personally also appreciate vinyl and streaming as my only two sources of music - provided the quality of the streaming services is consistently high and reliable! From the experiments we made last spring our conclusion was that quality shifted annoyingly much, between services and within the same service.
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