Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer

[sunbeamgls]

Fredrik

I find locally ripped CDs and purchased downloads on my NAS consistently sound better than what I get from Tidal Hifi (I don't do their MQA on principle!). And within Tidal Hifi, there seem to be some albums that are better than others.
Having said that, I think any streamer that omits support for full fat streaming such as Tidal and Qobuz (possibly Spotify in the near future) has a very short shelf life. I use Tidal for exploring all sorts of artists I hear on the radio and via music and hifi forums to see if I want to go on to buy the material to listen to properly.

More importantly, however, my kids (14 and 16 years) have grown up with access to Tidal. They are discerning enough to not want to listen to mp3 levels of compression, but they don't currently have any interest in the difference between Tidal and the NAS (although, of course, this may change as they eventually have the income to purchase equipment that will allow them to appreciate the differences). They essentially own virtually no music. As they are now used to having access to pretty much anything they want to listen to, I can't really see them ever building up their own collection - they would find that very limiting. They are, of course, the future purchasers of hifi, and there's no way they would buy a streamer without access to these services. Do they worry about music that's not available on Tidal? I don't think they do - they have access to so much other content, they just move on to the next thing they're interested in.

So I suggest you need to consider your potential audience, not just those who currently have a large collection on their NAS.

[matthias]

From the experiments we made last spring our conclusion was that quality shifted annoyingly much, between services and within the same service.

I think the SQ of streaming services will get better and more consistent in the future.
There are members on the ComputerAudiophile forum, who report zero SQ differences between local stored music on a NAS and music via Tidal.

Matt

[matthias]

I think any streamer that omits support for full fat streaming such as Tidal and Qobuz (possibly Spotify in the near future) has a very short shelf life.

They essentially own virtually no music. As they are now used to having access to pretty much anything they want to listen to, I can't really see them ever building up their own collection - they would find that very limiting. They are, of course, the future purchasers of hifi, and there's no way they would buy a streamer without access to these services. Do they worry about music that's not available on Tidal? I don't think they do - they have access to so much other content, they just move on to the next thing they're interested in.

So I suggest you need to consider your potential audience, not just those who currently have a large collection on their NAS.

Agree.

Matt

[matss]

Fredrik

I find locally ripped CDs and purchased downloads on my NAS consistently sound better than what I get from Tidal Hifi (I don't do their MQA on principle!). And within Tidal Hifi, there seem to be some albums that are better than others.
Having said that, I think any streamer that omits support for full fat streaming such as Tidal and Qobuz (possibly Spotify in the near future) has a very short shelf life. I use Tidal for exploring all sorts of artists I hear on the radio and via music and hifi forums to see if I want to go on to buy the material to listen to properly.

More importantly, however, my kids (14 and 16 years) have grown up with access to Tidal. They are discerning enough to not want to listen to mp3 levels of compression, but they don't currently have any interest in the difference between Tidal and the NAS (although, of course, this may change as they eventually have the income to purchase equipment that will allow them to appreciate the differences). They essentially own virtually no music. As they are now used to having access to pretty much anything they want to listen to, I can't really see them ever building up their own collection - they would find that very limiting. They are, of course, the future purchasers of hifi, and there's no way they would buy a streamer without access to these services. Do they worry about music that's not available on Tidal? I don't think they do - they have access to so much other content, they just move on to the next thing they're interested in.

So I suggest you need to consider your potential audience, not just those who currently have a large collection on their NAS.

+100. This is exactly my experience as well. Streaming is a required function to explore new music, but I still buy downloads and vinyl to secure source origin of the music I want to have available in my library.

[u252agz]

I would personally also appreciate vinyl and streaming as my only two sources of music - provided the quality of the streaming services is consistently high and reliable! From the experiments we made last spring our conclusion was that quality shifted annoyingly much, between services and within the same service.

Variable quality in streaming would be infuriating to me and totally unacceptable.

Knowing that the music could be/ should be/ has been much better with the same streaming service would be a deal breaker for me .

If that were the only option, I would use my LP12 for pleasure and streaming for curiosity.

[matthias]

Variable quality in streaming would be infuriating to me and totally unacceptable.

IMO, there are the same quality issues as with electricity.
Your setup will sound better after midnight than during the day.
But Tidal has one month free trial and Qobuz two weeks.
Enough time for comparisons.

Matt

[sunbeamgls]

From the experiments we made last spring our conclusion was that quality shifted annoyingly much, between services and within the same service.

I think the SQ of streaming services will get better and more consistent in the future.
There are members on the ComputerAudiophile forum, who report zero SQ differences between local stored music on a NAS and music via Tidal.

Matt

Interesting. They can't hear the graininess in vocals caused by the watermarking?

[matthias]

deleted

[Music Lover]

Gents, with streaming - are you discussing streaming from the Net or streaming from a NAS?
Two completely different aspects.

I fully understand people that use streaming from the Net as a secondary source, complementing vinyl or streaming from a NAS.
But streaming from the Net is totally unacceptable as only source imho!!
- music is disappearing without notice
- some music is not available
- you have NO control of the version. Most are NOT the true original (compressed, remastered, remixed = destroyed)

Even IF the sound quality is addressed, the above isn't !!!


The original CD recording (or digital file), good quality NAS, a good ripping device, good cables/switch and everything on a good rack = great result.

Owning you own original LP-records and CD-records are the only way to be sure you getting the best reproduction.

[matthias]

I listen to Spotify more than vinyl or streaming. However, when I discover a song, band, or artist I want to own; I always first buy that on vinyl if available. Anything else would be a compromise.

Spotify can be very good. It is a pity that they offer MP3 only at the moment. But even with MP3 some music can sound glorious with a simple Macbook and DAC in my set-up.

Matt

[matthias]

Owning you own original LP-records and CD-records are the only way to be sure you getting the best reproduction.

Then why do we need a streamer?

Matt

[matthias]

Certainly we can not control the source of a streaming service like we can not control the electricity we get from our supplier. But we can choose the best one and make the best out of it.
It is a known fact that with certain devices streaming from Qobuz, Tidal or Spotify can sound VERY good like a setup with Lejonklou gear sounds better than the competition, both getting the same source and electricity.
It might be interesting to compare CDs from ECM records with the same music from streaming services. I am sure ECM will supply Tidal and Qobuz with very good SQ.
Matt

[matss]

Gents, with streaming - are you discussing streaming from the Net or streaming from a NAS?
Two completely different aspects.

I fully understand people that use streaming from the Net as a secondary source, complementing vinyl or streaming from a NAS.
But streaming from the Net is totally unacceptable as only source imho!!
- music is disappearing without notice
- some music is not available
- you have NO control of the version. Most are NOT the true original (compressed, remastered, remixed = destroyed)

Even IF the sound quality is addressed, the above isn't !!!


The original CD recording (or digital file), good quality NAS, a good ripping device, good cables/switch and everything on a good rack = great result.

Owning you own original LP-records and CD-records are the only way to be sure you getting the best reproduction.

Exactly. Unfortunately. Hopefully better source control will appear in future streaming services, but my hopes are not that high.

[sunbeamgls]

Gents, with streaming - are you discussing streaming from the Net or streaming from a NAS?
Two completely different aspects.

I fully understand people that use streaming from the Net as a secondary source, complementing vinyl or streaming from a NAS.
But streaming from the Net is totally unacceptable as only source imho!!
- music is disappearing without notice
- some music is not available
- you have NO control of the version. Most are NOT the true original (compressed, remastered, remixed = destroyed)

Even IF the sound quality is addressed, the above isn't !!!


The original CD recording (or digital file), good quality NAS, a good ripping device, good cables/switch and everything on a good rack = great result.

Owning you own original LP-records and CD-records are the only way to be sure you getting the best reproduction.

Exactly. Unfortunately. Hopefully better source control will appear in future streaming services, but my hopes are not that high.

Currently some of the labels are deliberately damaging
the files through watermarking. So those who pay up to legally stream are penalised in the name of preventing piracy. Sadly I expect this to become more amd more prevalent. Perhaps the techniques will become less obtrusive over time.
I still think a streamer needs these facilities for reasons mentioned up the thread. And no, I don't get any income from streaming services.

[Music Lover]

Owning you own original LP-records and CD-records are the only way to be sure you getting the best reproduction.

Then why do we need a streamer?

Matt

I store the CD’s as files on my NAS.

[maffe]

For me the LP12 is my main sours. I use Tidal to find new music and "lazy listening", if I like it I buy the LP Some of my music I only have ripped from CD to NAS and it´s not available on Tidal/spotify.
That said I would not buy a streamer that don´t support Tidal or some other HQ-streaming service and I would not buy a streamer that don´t support use of a NAS for my ripped CD´s since the streaming services tend to change what they have and from time to time it´s not good sound or musicality.

[lejonklou]

From the experiments we made last spring our conclusion was that quality shifted annoyingly much, between services and within the same service.

I think the SQ of streaming services will get better and more consistent in the future.
There are members on the ComputerAudiophile forum, who report zero SQ differences between local stored music on a NAS and music via Tidal

Why do you think that? My experience so far is the opposite.

If those members can't hear a difference, they are either deaf or have very poor equipment. I am not talking about small differences, they are like night and day.

Tidal often performs the worst, with a resolution that appears high (finer detail, sounds like high bitrate), but musically it's dead. No sense of emotion or meaning with the songs. Sometimes it gets a little better and we once traced this to the stream coming from a different server. Then the next time you play that same song, it's dead again.

Spotify appeared to be rather consistent when we tested (might have changed now, I have no idea), with a dull and "grey" MP3 sound. Not dead like Tidal, however, so usually more enjoyable although less polished.

Google Play often performed best, although very clearly compressed. Again, this might have changed now, I don't know.

All three mentioned streaming services are completely crushed by streaming an MP3 from the NAS (the entire chain NAS - Switch - Streamer is optimised). Laugh Out Loud difference.

[lejonklou]

Gents, with streaming - are you discussing streaming from the Net or streaming from a NAS?

Streaming from the Net is what we're discussing. I call them 'Streaming Services', to differentiate from 'Streaming' as a general concept.

[matthias]

Fredrik,
do you have experiences with Qobuz?

Matt

[lejonklou]

Fredrik,
do you have experiences with Qobuz?

Matt

No, none yet.

How is their catalogue compared to all the others? Is there any updated website that compares the catalogues, preferably by genre?

[matthias]

How is their catalogue compared to all the others? Is there any updated website that compares the catalogues, preferably by genre?

AFAIK, they are specialized in european music, classical music and jazz.
Technically they have no affiliation with Roon and MQA and offer real high-res up to 24/192.
Some say the SQ is better than the others.

Matt

[matthias]

Fredrik,
please read what Hifi Critic, the magazine that tested your Boazu, wrote about listening to Tidal:

https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/wp-content/upl ... ridge1.pdf

Thanks

Matt

PS: This does not mean that Tidal is my preferred streaming service.

[Azazello]

Deleted a post (and two replies to it) that felt more lika a personal attack than a comment on the subject.

Please stick to topic, and please be polite (I'm the only one who gets to be impolite here)!

[christian]

From the experiments we made last spring our conclusion was that quality shifted annoyingly much, between services and within the same service.

I think the SQ of streaming services will get better and more consistent in the future.
There are members on the ComputerAudiophile forum, who report zero SQ differences between local stored music on a NAS and music via Tidal

All three mentioned streaming services are completely crushed by streaming an MP3 from the NAS (the entire chain NAS - Switch - Streamer is optimised). Laugh Out Loud difference.

I agree with this. Also I like to mention that although I have tried many times I have never found a digital downloaded copy of an album to be better that my own cd rips. If they are high res they are usually even worse. This also aplies to Linn records. Also if you compare different issues of the same CD it seems that the older issues are the best. Newer issues are often remastered and sound musically worse. Many times I have been tempted too buy classic Jazz albums from the 50’s as high res files (192/24). I you compare them with an original LP you can wonder if the guys that are remastering are totally deaf. Sound is clear and crisp but all the tension, feeling and sensation in the music is gone. So I stick with vinyl.

[sunbeamgls]

I agree with this. Also I like to mention that although I have tried many times I have never found a digital downloaded copy of an album to be better that my own cd rips. If they are high res they are usually even worse. This also aplies to Linn records. Also if you compare different issues of the same CD it seems that the older issues are the best. Newer issues are often remastered and sound musically worse. Many times I have been tempted too buy classic Jazz albums from the 50’s as high res files (192/24). I you compare them with an original LP you can wonder if the guys that are remastering are totally deaf. Sound is clear and crisp but all the tension, feeling and sensation in the music is gone. So I stick with vinyl.

I'm guessing there are quite a few very badly mastered vinyl albums too. Rubbish mastering isn't restricted to one format, unfortunately.