Thoughts around a Lejonklou Streamer

Conversations about Lejonklou Products and this Forum

Moderator: Staff

User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

HansW wrote:
lejonklou wrote:
matthias wrote:AFAIK, his preferred format is 24bit/44.1kHz in contrast to 24/96.
Huh! I didn't quite expect that. So high resolution is fine but high sampling rates are not? I'd like to know whether he's reached those preferences on specific equipment or whether he finds it reproducible anywhere.
A potential explanation may be one that I heard Scott Berry of CAD (Computor Audio Design) provide a couple of weeks ago. He finds high frequency noise to be the main obstacle in trying to get goid sound from digital sources. He therefore does everything he can to reduce this in his dac designs including no oversampling, no dsd and no switched mode power supplies. If he is right, higher sampling frequencies create problems that need to be dealt with if the benefits are to exceed the liabilities.

There are several other companies that have gone down this non-oversampling route, such as Metrum, Vertex, Audio Note etc, to avhieve a more 'analog' sound.
Yes, he's definitely right in that higher frequencies create problems that need to be dealt with.

Some seem to blame high frequencies for everything that is bad. I suspect one reason for this is that they are used to simply calculate their low frequency designs, which then end up working pretty much as expected. When they add high frequencies, such as when using Switched Mode Power Supplies, a lot of trial and error is needed to obtain good results. And I mean A LOT. The circuit won't behave as you calculated and it won't sound as you expected. You need to make countless practical tests to hear what happens and figure out how it reacts. It's a whole other beast to wrestle with.

But I didn't really expect these "high frequency are problematic" arguments to appear in the choice between for instance 44.1 and 96 kHz sampling frequencies in the recording part of the chain. I thought the professional equipment they used were well adapted to the higher sampling rates. Perhaps even optimised for the highest rates. Perhaps they're not? If they are not, the problem starts there and it won't really matter what sampling rate our DAC's are optimised for. The music file is already best in a certain (perhaps low) sampling rate.
User avatar
matss
Active member
Active member
Posts: 127
Joined: 2011-03-19 16:52
Location: Stockholm

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matss »

Thanks for sharing some of your experiences and thought on digital audio. Fascinating. And I can understand how frustrating all this must be. At the same time working with standard protocols and standard application intefaces seems like a sure prerequisite if you want to achieve an appreciated digital audio player today from a user perspective. Dealing with their constant stream of updates and sometimes non standard patches I guess is just what you have to live with as a digital designer of current times.

Wish you the best of luck in your continued endeavors to master digital. Hope you crack the code sometime in the future and we will be able to see digital truely done right from your hands. I bet that will be exciting.

/mats
KLP12, KDSM/2, 3xKCT, homebrewn active speakers, Sneaky DS, OD11, Axis, Linto, Classik, Klout, OA12
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you Mats!
MikeF
Member
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: 2017-03-01 00:10

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by MikeF »

First of all, many thanks to al of you for honest and inspiring answers. It convinces me that, at least for an intermediate term, a KRDS makes sense for me (listening digital only and still being with the Majik DS)

Given this
lejonklou wrote: We've tried different architectures. The initial idea was to separate everything, in particular the music feed from other processes, but in practice it soon turned out to work better to integrate most processes and keep a steady work rate. There are so many parts of this field where we (or most of us) have general ideas and views about how things work that are simply not correct. Like many audiophiles when mentioning "vibrations": Their gut reaction is to add damping until they are removed. But anyone who's ever understood at least the basics of an LP12 knows that's a very ineffective approach. A common assumption in digital audio is that fluctuations in the power consumption (or supply) can influence the analogue side of the D/A converter. But in fact it's much more critical how such fluctuations affect the digital stream of data before it arrives at the D/A converter. There's lots to perfect in that field and it's controlled by both hardware and software.
and other comments, as a layman, one may be worried about the quality of the digital signal in terms of "1" being still ones but not being all at the exactly the same level, etc etc. Each "1" and "0" is defined within an error margin and I do not know what happens if a high or a low "1", both being a logical "1", enters into a DAC. If that was a problem (I am no expert), a tempting idea would be to regenerate the logical signal right before entering the DAC. Put a D to D converter in front. Read the digital signal and decide for each bit if it is a 1 or 0. Then generate exactly the same sequences of bits with best components in a well defined environment and feed it into the DAC right away on the same PCB. Surely somebody must have tried this or must be doing this already, is too simple. So sorry if I say something stupid or self evident.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: If we for a moment ignore the difficulty of making each product and only focus on how to arrive at the best possible result, I think the optimal order would be to first release a NAS (use it with the streamer you prefer), then a digital music machine/streamer without DAC (use it with our NAS and the DAC your prefer) and last of all the DAC (if possible as a plug in board in the digital music machine).
lejonklou wrote: There is quite a lot of performance to be gained by ignoring the standard network protocols and letting the storage and streamer communicate in their own optimised way. But then they won't be able to communicate with other network products, as people have come to expect.
Fredrik,
thanks for the update, agree completely.
Does the streamer communicate with a DAC via USB?
Please enable your streamer to squeeze out the best quality from Qobuz.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

MikeF wrote:First of all, many thanks to al of you for honest and inspiring answers. It convinces me that, at least for an intermediate term, a KRDS makes sense for me (listening digital only and still being with the Majik DS)

Given this
lejonklou wrote: We've tried different architectures. The initial idea was to separate everything, in particular the music feed from other processes, but in practice it soon turned out to work better to integrate most processes and keep a steady work rate. There are so many parts of this field where we (or most of us) have general ideas and views about how things work that are simply not correct. Like many audiophiles when mentioning "vibrations": Their gut reaction is to add damping until they are removed. But anyone who's ever understood at least the basics of an LP12 knows that's a very ineffective approach. A common assumption in digital audio is that fluctuations in the power consumption (or supply) can influence the analogue side of the D/A converter. But in fact it's much more critical how such fluctuations affect the digital stream of data before it arrives at the D/A converter. There's lots to perfect in that field and it's controlled by both hardware and software.
and other comments, as a layman, one may be worried about the quality of the digital signal in terms of "1" being still ones but not being all at the exactly the same level, etc etc. Each "1" and "0" is defined within an error margin and I do not know what happens if a high or a low "1", both being a logical "1", enters into a DAC. If that was a problem (I am no expert), a tempting idea would be to regenerate the logical signal right before entering the DAC. Put a D to D converter in front. Read the digital signal and decide for each bit if it is a 1 or 0. Then generate exactly the same sequences of bits with best components in a well defined environment and feed it into the DAC right away on the same PCB. Surely somebody must have tried this or must be doing this already, is too simple. So sorry if I say something stupid or self evident.
Thank you MikeF! What you're suggesting is certainly not stupid, but done already.

There are many integrated circuits which reclock and/or regenerate a digital signal. But they 1) can never completely remove problems in the incoming signal, and 2) add their own errors to the signal.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

matthias wrote:
lejonklou wrote: If we for a moment ignore the difficulty of making each product and only focus on how to arrive at the best possible result, I think the optimal order would be to first release a NAS (use it with the streamer you prefer), then a digital music machine/streamer without DAC (use it with our NAS and the DAC your prefer) and last of all the DAC (if possible as a plug in board in the digital music machine).
lejonklou wrote: There is quite a lot of performance to be gained by ignoring the standard network protocols and letting the storage and streamer communicate in their own optimised way. But then they won't be able to communicate with other network products, as people have come to expect.
Fredrik,
thanks for the update, agree completely.
Does the streamer communicate with a DAC via USB?
Please enable your streamer to squeeze out the best quality from Qobuz.
It depends. If the DAC is internal and tightly integrated with the digital music machine, I2S is most likely to be used. But we've had great results with a tweaked USB interface, which allows for the DAC to be an external and exchangeable unit.

I should test Qobuz, it would be nice if it has a higher sound quality than the other streaming services.
User avatar
doze84
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2009-05-21 13:09
Location: Östersund(Sweden)
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by doze84 »

Hi Fredrik, I have an idea that I would like to have your feedback on! :)

1) How about a Thunderbolt fibre optic cable and then connect the unit just like an external thunderbolt soundcard/dac to a computer.

I'm not sure about async drivers for thunderbolt devices but if the driver is written correctly this would make the transfer bit perfect and all noise from the computer isolated, and eliminate the need for a streamer/digital platform between the computer and the dac.

https://www.apple.com/se/shop/product/H ... rning-55-m
https://www.corning.com/optical-cables- ... ables.html

Since high-res-audio on windows isn't especially funny anyways with requirement for asio drivers. And even if one has asio drivers, spotify and other programs wont let you us it. So, everyone that want's to play on the streamer has to pick up a mac with native support for 192khz/24bit and thunderbolt. Frankly as a windows/linux user, I don't see that as a problem for getting to a Lejonklou level of sound quality. And it would spare you a lot of headache with upnp and other stuff. All you need to focus on is the unit itself and maybe drivers.
User avatar
doze84
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2009-05-21 13:09
Location: Östersund(Sweden)
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by doze84 »

I deleted my last message about optical USB, because the cable I had found turned out to not be 100% optical after all.

But now it seems I've found an USB 3.0 cable that actually is 100% fiber and no copper conductor in it.

https://www.unibrain.com/products/usb-3 ... detailsTab

So even better if this can be implemented with USB.

Here is an async open source dac, that maybe can provide some code, to ease the process:
https://www.henryaudio.com/open-source.php

Also there seem to be a lot of asynchronous USB-I2S circuits out there!
If all really are bit perfect, that's another thing.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

Hi doze84!

Thank you for the ideas! There's certainly a new angle required to get us out of the current performance-is-not-consistent-hole. That's where most digital products are right now. I feel mostly relieved (but also a little disappointed) that I don't yet have a product on the market. I'm not fully satisfied and my customers are at least as hard to please.

Regarding your tips:
Asynchronous USB is no good. I've never gotten anywhere with that format.

Regarding your other suggestions, do they all consist of a digital source feeding a DAC? If so, what's important to know is that in those scenarios, the digital source is where ALL the magic lies. Not in the DAC. In fact, if you have two different computers as digital sources and decide to find the ultimate DAC for them, you might find that one DAC sounds best with the first computer while another DAC sounds best with the second computer. And when you compare the combinations, you'll find it's the computer that sets the limits. And this happens more or less regardless of in how you transfer the signal from the computer to the DAC.

The NAS still rules if your aim is the best sound possible, but I agree that it's neither fun nor practical and they will most likely become rare in the future. But they do provide a key to performance because they are the point where static data is converted to a stream, by adding a clock. Bit perfect is no problem, correct data isn't (except you can still hunt for the best version of the file as in different mixes or rips of CDs), but when it starts moving, the challenge begins.
User avatar
doze84
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2009-05-21 13:09
Location: Östersund(Sweden)
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by doze84 »

No worries, we've lerner from Apple, that it's better to get things right than fast:)
And it's not easy to be in a position where all established standards are flawed.

I have to disagree here on the importance of the feeder. I know this is probably your experience and probably the case with most dacs out there up until now.

But If an optical cable is used, and the fact stands that the computer affects the music, there's something wrong in the code(drivers/protocol).

That's why you, in that case, need to have a programmer look into the asynchronous drivers and see if they really get every bit over, and buffer correctly. If every bit gets to the other side, with help of a protocol, the computer will not have any say in the matter. It's impossible:)
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

We've gone much deeper into this than you think, doze84. In my opinion,

Data integrity is never a problem.
Optical transmission adds more problems than it solves.
Asynchronous USB is not particularity good.

It's not that difficult to get a nice sound. It's when trying to arrive at something really musical that the problems and inconsistencies begin. And most of the really important factors are in the domain that you just labeled "impossible". Hence the massive challenge.
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Spannko »

Lejonklou,

Reading through this thread again I noticed your statement “...... the optimal design of the network and data storage appears to be the same regardless of which digital platform or streamer one uses.”

I wonder if you could provide some pointers which would help us to optimise our digital systems?

Thank you.
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

I'm not sure what info could be useful, Spannko. The parts with which we built NAS and streamers are gone from the market, or will be soon. The general rules for how to connect the network and the mains is described elsewhere and still valid. Ethernet cables should be between 2 and 3 meters in length, both from NAS to switch and from switch to DS. CAT 6a seems good.

What I meant was that it's rather strange that many digital parts and their parameters appear to have intrinsic levels of quality, regardless of how they're used and with what. For instance, build a NAS and a streamer, designed to work together, connected only with an Ethernet cable. If you disregard the common standards, there are lots of ways to improve performance and fine tune how they together reproduce the music. Tweak every part and parameter. OK, now you're done and it's quite good. Then add a switch in between them. Performance improves! Why?
Spannko
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2292
Joined: 2008-01-24 21:46
Location: North East of The Black Country, UK

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Spannko »

I thought you might suggest the LS NAS! I was wondering if you’d tried any of the newer HiFi NASs like the Melco, Aurender etc.

I’ve just remembered that ThomasOK compared a Melco N1 to his LS NAS and felt that the Melco was good but the LS NAS was still slightly better. I’ve compared the N1 to the N1HZ and felt that the N1HZ was quite a bit better. The N1 sounded boring compared to the N1ZH which seemed to have a much more musical and analog sound, bigger I’d say than going from ADS to KDS, so maybe the N1HZ is at least as good as the LS NAS?
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

Spannko wrote:I thought you might suggest the LS NAS! I was wondering if you’d tried any of the newer HiFi NASs like the Melco, Aurender etc.
I’ve just remembered that ThomasOK compared a Melco N1 to his LS NAS and felt that the Melco was good but the LS NAS was still slightly better. I’ve compared the N1 to the N1HZ and felt that the N1HZ was quite a bit better. The N1 sounded boring compared to the N1ZH which seemed to have a much more musical and analog sound, bigger I’d say than going from ADS to KDS, so maybe the N1HZ is at least as good as the LS NAS?
Did you compare Melco to Innuos Zenith?
If yes, what was the outcome?
Thanks

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
lejonklou
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 6523
Joined: 2007-01-30 10:38
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote:I thought you might suggest the LS NAS! I was wondering if you’d tried any of the newer HiFi NASs like the Melco, Aurender etc.

I’ve just remembered that ThomasOK compared a Melco N1 to his LS NAS and felt that the Melco was good but the LS NAS was still slightly better. I’ve compared the N1 to the N1HZ and felt that the N1HZ was quite a bit better. The N1 sounded boring compared to the N1ZH which seemed to have a much more musical and analog sound, bigger I’d say than going from ADS to KDS, so maybe the N1HZ is at least as good as the LS NAS?
I've tested one Melco, but I don't remember which model. I wasn't quite convinced at the time.

I read Thomas O'Keefe's test of the N1 and your test of the N1ZH and then I thought the same as you: Maybe, just maybe the N1ZH is as good or better than an LSNAS (which today isn't really possible to build anyway)?

In any case, I agree with you that from a musical perspective, the impact of NAS quality is comparable to the difference between Linn ADS and KDS. Perhaps even bigger than that.

I have never heard an Innuos Zenith, by the way. Is it good?
User avatar
Matteo
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 913
Joined: 2018-01-25 14:12
Location: Milano, Italia

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Matteo »

As I just stated before, IMHO the only way to forget about NAS is to implement a player with only streaming service (Dezeer, Spotify, Qobuz, Tidal etc.).

The future could be this.

The discussion could however move on "is a ripped cd played via NAS better than the same album on Tidal"?

M.
User avatar
doze84
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2009-05-21 13:09
Location: Östersund(Sweden)
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by doze84 »

lejonklou wrote:We've gone much deeper into this than you think, doze84. In my opinion,

Data integrity is never a problem.
Optical transmission adds more problems than it solves.
Asynchronous USB is not particularity good.

It's not that difficult to get a nice sound. It's when trying to arrive at something really musical that the problems and inconsistencies begin. And most of the really important factors are in the domain that you just labeled "impossible". Hence the massive challenge.
What I meant to say was, that. " If every bit, gets to the other side with help of checksums, it's buffered correctly, and an optical cable is used, it's impossible that the feeder has any say in the matter." And I hope you agree with that or I'll soon do start to questions your sanity:D:D

The problem I guess, is that this has never been tested..

Maybe the endconnector and it's little chip of an optical cable ads noise to the usb cuircut, but it spares you all the hassle with nas and picking the right computer-parts.

Why do you think all async dacs are bad, are usb cuircuts noisy? Is the computer adding electric noise over normal cables? Or have they just implemented the analogue part badly.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: I have never heard an Innuos Zenith, by the way. Is it good?
IIRC, comparing Innuos to Melco on various fora, there are more who prefer the Innuos.

http://innuos.com/uploads/cms/Reviews/H ... uos_LR.pdf

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote: Data integrity is never a problem.
Optical transmission adds more problems than it solves.
Asynchronous USB is not particularity good.
Agree.
I see a trend going from USB-DACs to Ethernet-DACs like Klimax DS:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthrea ... the-winner

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
doze84
Active member
Active member
Posts: 103
Joined: 2009-05-21 13:09
Location: Östersund(Sweden)
Contact:

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by doze84 »

lejonklou wrote:Hi doze84!

But they do provide a key to performance because they are the point where static data is converted to a stream, by adding a clock. Bit perfect is no problem, correct data isn't (except you can still hunt for the best version of the file as in different mixes or rips of CDs), but when it starts moving, the challenge begins.
How does this work?
It sounds like you're saying that the nas adds a clock. But to my understanding nas uses Ethernet and TCP/IP to a DS and resends packets that gets errors, even when streaming from e.g Tidal. Hence this clock has no impact on the chain.

This is the process in a normal computer as I imagine:
1) Codecs in the computer decodes everything to PCM.

2) How is PCM trasfered to the soundcard, does this chain have error correction and checksums, like the rest of the filesystem?
I imagine it transfers with error correction.

3)The sound card buffers the data, after re-requiring lost packets, and starts feeding the clock.
matthias
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 2092
Joined: 2007-12-25 16:47
Location: Germany

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by matthias »

lejonklou wrote:Bit perfect is no problem, correct data isn't (except you can still hunt for the best version of the file as in different mixes or rips of CDs), but when it starts moving, the challenge begins.
Interesting that a lot of music enthusiasts prefer a very good cd transport to a NAS.

Matt
Matt

MBP / Exposure pre + power (both modified) / JBL3677
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Music Lover »

doze84 wrote:
lejonklou wrote:We've gone much deeper into this than you think, doze84. In my opinion,

Data integrity is never a problem.
Optical transmission adds more problems than it solves.
Asynchronous USB is not particularity good.

It's not that difficult to get a nice sound. It's when trying to arrive at something really musical that the problems and inconsistencies begin. And most of the really important factors are in the domain that you just labeled "impossible". Hence the massive challenge.
What I meant to say was, that. " If every bit, gets to the other side with help of checksums, it's buffered correctly, and an optical cable is used, it's impossible that the feeder has any say in the matter." And I hope you agree with that or I'll soon do start to questions your sanity:D:D

The problem I guess, is that this has never been tested..
It was tested by me and Linnofil 2007, when Linn released the KDS.

And when we described our findings on various Linn forums, we were indeed labelled as insane.
Today, some of our statements seems accepted. That's good. Because it's facts.
It's all about musical understanding!
User avatar
Music Lover
Very active member
Very active member
Posts: 1673
Joined: 2007-01-31 20:35
Location: In front of Lejonklou/JBL/Ofil

Re: The New Lejonklou Streamer

Post by Music Lover »

matthias wrote:
lejonklou wrote:Bit perfect is no problem, correct data isn't (except you can still hunt for the best version of the file as in different mixes or rips of CDs), but when it starts moving, the challenge begins.
Interesting that a lot of music enthusiasts prefer a very good cd transport to a NAS.

Matt
Well, normally they use crap switch, crap cables, crap NAS, crap ripping etc =everything that's important.
It's all about musical understanding!
Post Reply