DS killer

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rowlandhills
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Re: DS killer

Post by rowlandhills »

I believe that at one point some of the Linn engineers were using an early version of the SongCast protocol to send the left channel to one DS and the right channel to a different DS, and ensuing that they kept in sync...
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Re: DS killer

Post by tokenbrit »

That's what I meant when I said I'd expect a solution would be needed to keep L&R in sync in an LDS Mono design if that went as far as separating channels while still in the digital domain. It would appear that the SongCast protocol could be used but curious what complexity that would add vs the musical gain, if any. Most here agree that there are musical differences between lossless formats - can only guess what an additional protocol might introduce to maintain clock sync. (tunedem impact?)

All supposition, of course. In Fredrik we trust, but my bet would be on an MC phono stage before a Lejonklou Digital Streamer even though my money would be on an LDS if/when it comes to fruition. (expecting that it would improve on a KRDS/1 in much the same way as Fredrik's finest do over Linn's best efforts ;)
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Re: DS killer

Post by DelNaja »

Maybe this thread could be fused with this one (or vice versa), since they're about the same subject matter?

http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2719

It would be nice to have all comments and thoughts in one thread.
Just a thought.
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Re: DS killer

Post by lejonklou »

DelNaja wrote:Maybe this thread could be fused with this one (or vice versa), since they're about the same subject matter?

http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2719

It would be nice to have all comments and thoughts in one thread.
Just a thought.
Done!

First two threads I've merged. The old forum didn't allow it.
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Re: DS killer

Post by DelNaja »

Nice, thanks!
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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

macrotech2 wrote: There must be a streamer that comes close enough to a Klimax DS that isn't stupid money.
You can try a Merging Nadac or Merging Hapi until Fredriks DS is ready.

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Re: DS killer

Post by macrotech2 »

matthias wrote:
macrotech2 wrote: There must be a streamer that comes close enough to a Klimax DS that isn't stupid money.
You can try a Merging Nadac or Merging Hapi until Fredriks DS is ready.

Matt
Interesting. Thanks Matt.
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Re: DS killer

Post by hcl »

macrotech2 wrote:There must be a streamer that comes close enough to a Klimax DS that isn't stupid money.
Why? Two arguments against;
1. Anyone making such a product would set the price relative to the competition so the price can be set high.
2. Linn do have quite a large market share and can therefore split the development cost on more units, actually reducing the price they have to set in order to re-coupe the initial development costs.
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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

hcl wrote:
macrotech2 wrote:There must be a streamer that comes close enough to a Klimax DS that isn't stupid money.
Why? Two arguments against;
1. Anyone making such a product would set the price relative to the competition so the price can be set high.
2. Linn do have quite a large market share and can therefore split the development cost on more units, actually reducing the price they have to set in order to re-coupe the initial development costs.
Some prices in UK:

Klimax DS 13300 GBP
Merging Nadac 8400 GBP

Merry Christmas
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/mergin ... converter/
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Re: DS killer

Post by macrotech2 »

hcl wrote:
macrotech2 wrote:There must be a streamer that comes close enough to a Klimax DS that isn't stupid money.
Why? Two arguments against;
1. Anyone making such a product would set the price relative to the competition so the price can be set high.
2. Linn do have quite a large market share and can therefore split the development cost on more units, actually reducing the price they have to set in order to re-coupe the initial development costs.
Linn price opportunistically to make large profits. That's how they operate. Not all companies follow this method. Fredrik has already shown on his pre and power amps that he can make better products than Linn at better prices.

As for all companies setting the price high, that's not necessarily true. It's all a balance of numbers sold x cost. Lower prices may mean more sales and more profit. You're also assuming that there isn't a cheaper way of achieving the same sound quality than Linn's method. They do not have a monopoly on ingenuity. What they do have is a very dedicated following of well heeled customers who have become accustomed to paying very high prices. That's a great situation for them to be in, and good luck to them, but with rapidly advancing technology there must be someone out there who can beat them at their own game.
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Re: DS killer

Post by magnuska »

matthias wrote:
hcl wrote:
macrotech2 wrote:There must be a streamer that comes close enough to a Klimax DS that isn't stupid money.
Why? Two arguments against;
1. Anyone making such a product would set the price relative to the competition so the price can be set high.
2. Linn do have quite a large market share and can therefore split the development cost on more units, actually reducing the price they have to set in order to re-coupe the initial development costs.
Some prices in UK:

Klimax DS 13300 GBP
Merging Nadac 8400 GBP

Merry Christmas
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/mergin ... converter/
Matt

Hi Matt,

Another alternative wich looks interesting is a swiss brand Illusonic
http://www.illusonic.com/audio-processors/iap-2/

The IAP 2 costs around 10000 GBP

An alternative for the ones on a budget could be Auralic Aries with a Didit DAC 212 ( wich I have now)
https://www.didit-highend.com/
http://www.auralic.com/en/

Total cost around 4500 GBP
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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

magnuska wrote: Hi Matt,
Another alternative wich looks interesting is a swiss brand Illusonic
http://www.illusonic.com/audio-processors/iap-2/
The IAP 2 costs around 10000 GBP
An alternative for the ones on a budget could be Auralic Aries with a Didit DAC 212 ( wich I have now)
https://www.didit-highend.com/
http://www.auralic.com/en/
Total cost around 4500 GBP
Magnuska,
thanks for the links. Unfortunately I found no specs on the Illusonic page about the DAC they use. IMHO, I would prefer the Merging products by a far margin. This company comes from the professional recording industry and makes a much more mature impression. A lot of high quality recordings are made with Merging equipment, including Linn recordings. A great advantage for me is DSD256 support, Linn do not support DSD because it is not compatible with their Exakt-System. If you need some analogue inputs you can use the Merging Hapi which offers an excellent ADC for around half the price of the Nadac.

The Didit DAC looks superb, has very good specs and supports up to DSD512. Can you write a review for us?

Yes, for ones on a tight budget there is the even less expensive new Aries Mini with an inbuilt DAC. You can combine the Mini with a better power supply and you will get nearly the same performance as the bigger Aries.

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Re: DS killer

Post by magnuska »

Matt I would not judge these two Nadac and Illusonic products solely based on their presentations on the web even
though its important to market ones products favourable of course.

I have seen the Auralic aries mini too. Looks interesting, I wonder why one would choose the Aries LE model over the mini?

Well anyway I am using the Didit dac 212 togehter with a PC , fanless with inbuild SSD 480 gb.
I bought the DAC this summer replaced a Teddy pardo dac with usb /spdif converter. I mainly play pcm flac files but have some HD tracks stored. Player is Jriver 20. You mention DSD and I hope to be able to convert my flac to DSD on the fly using Jriver but my current processor is not up to it. I have heard that at least quad core 3,4 ghz is needed for that.

The dac was a bit disappointing at first even though it was clear that it was a step up from the previous one I lacked some things. As I use USB i started to optimize that area and purchased the Uptone regen. And after a month it arrived from US and it made the usb connection really sound much better than before. This discovery made me questioning how bad many DAC Usb inputs really are. I also added a separate powersupply for the Regen wich made it almost twice as good as a bare Regen with the standard smps.

How does this sound then; The music flows in a very easy analogue way without harsch. You forget about the hardware and can concentrate only on the music thats presented.
The auralic boxes makes me wonder if streaming would sound even better than the PC? But the auralic boxes can`t upsample flac to DSD , not yet at least.

http://uptoneaudio.com/products/usb-regen
http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/rdacps.html
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Re: DS killer

Post by The FlatEarther »

Man oh man that sounds complex. Makes a KDS seem a positive bargain.
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Re: DS killer

Post by macrotech2 »

The FlatEarther wrote:Man oh man that sounds complex. Makes a KDS seem a positive bargain.
Yeah, because the KDS is the epitome of plug and play and perfect control software for the first time user?
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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

magnuska wrote:Matt I would not judge these two Nadac and Illusonic products solely based on their presentations on the web even
though its important to market ones products favourable of course.
Magnuska,
the Illusonic is not a DAC or DS per se, it is an "Audio Processor" and I have to confess that I have not the slightest interest in such a thing, sorry.

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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

The FlatEarther wrote:Man oh man that sounds complex. Makes a KDS seem a positive bargain.
Yes, you are right, it seems to be that USB is not the perfect input for digital audio. But the digital input for the Nadac is Ethernet like it is for the Klimax DS.

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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

magnuska wrote: Player is Jriver 20. You mention DSD and I hope to be able to convert my flac to DSD on the fly using Jriver but my current processor is not up to it. I have heard that at least quad core 3,4 ghz is needed for that.
It seems to be that the best player for converting to DSD is Signalyst HQPlayer. The newest version from Dec 24, 2015 does not need as much processing power as the former versions:
http://www.signalyst.com/index.html

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Re: DS killer

Post by hcl »

macrotech2 wrote:
hcl wrote:
macrotech2 wrote:There must be a streamer that comes close enough to a Klimax DS that isn't stupid money.
Why? Two arguments against;
1. Anyone making such a product would set the price relative to the competition so the price can be set high.
2. Linn do have quite a large market share and can therefore split the development cost on more units, actually reducing the price they have to set in order to re-coupe the initial development costs.
Linn price opportunistically to make large profits. That's how they operate. Not all companies follow this method. Fredrik has already shown on his pre and power amps that he can make better products than Linn at better prices.

As for all companies setting the price high, that's not necessarily true. It's all a balance of numbers sold x cost. Lower prices may mean more sales and more profit. You're also assuming that there isn't a cheaper way of achieving the same sound quality than Linn's method. They do not have a monopoly on ingenuity. What they do have is a very dedicated following of well heeled customers who have become accustomed to paying very high prices. That's a great situation for them to be in, and good luck to them,

but with rapidly advancing technology there must be someone out there who can beat them at their own game.
I was simply responding to the dogmatic - there surely have to be someone able to make a less costly comparable alternative.
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Re: DS killer

Post by Music Lover »

A lot of speculation in the thread, is it any that actually compared with KDS? If so, please let us know the setup and describe the outcome.
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Re: DS killer

Post by hcl »

This Merging info is interesting. Thanks for the tip!
matthias wrote:... A lot of high quality recordings are made with Merging equipment, including Linn recordings.
Is that so? I was told they use DAD interfaces, at least for classical recordings. They might have exchanged them and if so that is surely interesting. Do You have a reference for this info?
matthias wrote:Linn do not support DSD because it is not compatible with their Exakt-System.
Are You sure this is the primary reason? Linn have argued against DSD long before going for Exakt. I'm sure both PCM and DSD can produce very good end results. Dogmatic fixation to a specific technology seems unessesary.
matthias wrote:If you need some analogue inputs you can use the Merging Hapi which offers an excellent ADC for around half the price of the Nadac.
I will surely look into the Merging range. Have You compared the Merging unit with other similar products?
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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

hcl wrote:
matthias wrote:... A lot of high quality recordings are made with Merging equipment, including Linn recordings.
Is that so? I was told they use DAD interfaces, at least for classical recordings. They might have exchanged them and if so that is surely interesting. Do You have a reference for this info?
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f15-m ... post224279

Matt
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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

hcl wrote:
matthias wrote:Linn do not support DSD because it is not compatible with their Exakt-System.
Are You sure this is the primary reason? Linn have argued against DSD long before going for Exakt. I'm sure both PCM and DSD can produce very good end results. Dogmatic fixation to a specific technology seems unessesary.
Linn have planned Exakt long before releasing it. So it does make sense for Linn to argue against DSD long before going for Exakt. I agree with you regarding the results of PCM and DSD. Merging have an open mind and support both formats, but Linn have a dogmatic fixation against DSD.

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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

hcl wrote:
matthias wrote:If you need some analogue inputs you can use the Merging Hapi which offers an excellent ADC for around half the price of the Nadac.
I will surely look into the Merging range. Have You compared the Merging unit with other similar products?
The Nadac is a consumer product for audiophiles, the Hapi is a product for the professional recording industry but you can use it with a little bit inconvenience at home as well.
I have to find a dealer who offers Merging Nadac and Linn for comparisons, to find a dealer who offers a comparison between a professional product like Hapi and a Klimax DS is nearly impossible.
But there is a life outside the Linn cage.

Matt
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Re: DS killer

Post by matthias »

Something to listen to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40MiicCg2Rs

Matt
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