DS killer

[DelNaja]

Hi all,

I believe this thread needs to be started, so we can discuss this coming (hopefully!) Lejonklou product. My apologies if this thread already exists, I tried to look but didn't find anything but single threads about the subject here and there in other topics.

I am personally, and have been for some time actually, a little frustrated with some aspects in the Linn DS players. I feel that it's fatiguing to know that certain firmwares have a negative impact on musicality. I find it unacceptable that Linn, at least officially, states that there's no difference in performance between firmware versions, when at the same time many people (both on this and on the official forum) have experienced the opposite, using Tune dem. I feel that it's tiresome to NOT be able to just download the latest firmware and be happy, knowing that it will be the best thus far, and not having to worry about it. Furthermore, with the introduction of all the "accessories" lately (Songcast, Space etc.), I feel that the quest for the ultimate DS player is secondary at Linn. I'd like to add that I'm NOT givng a negative verdict to any of the "accessories" available today. I just feel that I'm not entirely satisfied with the direction things are going at Linn, from the "ultimate, no-compromise ds player" point of view.

I strongly believe that it is time for a DS player with a 100 % focus on musicality, from a company that takes musicality and quality development seriously. A company that strives to deliver the very best and whose products (including firmware updates etc.) we can fully trust.

I believe that Lejonklou is the right man for the job.

So, what do you think, fellow forumites? Do I stand alone in this? And, most importantly, what are your thoughts on this, Fredrik? Any chance that such a product may see the light of day anytime soon? :-)

[Music Lover]

I strongly believe that it is time for a DS player with a 100 % focus on musicality, from a company that takes musicality and quality development seriously.

Great idea!
Just some considerations...

Today you can sell hugely expensive speakers. (the Source is in...)
And also quite expensive power amps.
But it's not that easy to sell pre-amps and streamers, regardless of price, as it's deadly simple to get that functionality in any mobile or PC. And this to a low cost, often free and WITH A GOOD USER INTERFACE with EASY ACCESS to any music/video content you like.
And we all know that digital stuff can't affect the quality, right? (the Source is in...)

Consequently, the market is moving FAST towards that direction and even die-hard Linnies/Naimies follow!
Gilad obviously is a great business man, as he realized this long time ago.

So it's going to be a hard sell convincing more than a few crazy guys to buy something that likely going to be less user friendly and in many ways limited regarding functionality.
To produce the player is also a challenge as you going to face issues with vendors that change IC's&processors affecting performance.

But I'm in any day!!!!

[DelNaja]

So it's going to be a hard sell convincing more than a few crazy guys to buy something that likely going to be less user friendly and in many ways limited regarding functionality.
To produce the player is also a challenge as you going to face issues with vendors that change IC's&processors affecting performance.

Yes, this will surely be the challenge, or the aspect that will limit the market for such a player. Is the project worth the effort, for the sake of "a few crazy guys"?

I sincerely believe so! :-)

[rowlandhills]

My own take on this is that Fredrik is only one man, and until he is able to find others as obsessional as he is about musicality, I'd rather that he focuses on amplifiers, and potentially accessories such as power, speaker and interconnect cables.

By all means, once others are found with his ears and attention to detail then a "Lejonklou DS" would be great, but until then I'd rather let Linn's R&D team work on DS Players, as the digital skillset is very different to the analogue one, in my view.

[Music Lover]

Good post!
I also think speakers have a bigger market. (as stated in my fist post)

[matthias]

... as the digital skillset is very different to the analogue one, in my view.

For several reasons I was never fond of Linn DS Players, so I am on watch for this (no affiliation):

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3148.0

Matt

[lejonklou]

Thank you for bringing this up, DelNaja! And for your input, Music Lover and rowlandhills.

I have had a digital source as a part-time side project for several years now. Some unique ideas have formed, where focus is shifted from the versatility of today's machines to absolute performance. Less of a swiss army knife and instead a dedicated player of one long downloaded playlist. Also: Very simple installation and when a firmware update is presented, I guarantee it will perform better than the last one.

That kind of promise I know will lead to problems - at least for me. Just look at what happened to the memory function on Sagatun preamps. When they were implemented, the music suffered and I had to withdraw the firmware upgrade. Linntek and I have since tried ways of solving this, but so far the best sound is still obtained with the original (version 28) firmware.

My main problem is not digital technology. So far, my experience is that when digital is treated as analogue (i.e. with extreme care and humility), results are fantastic. No, the main problem is firmware, software and compatibility. Solving every possible future issue with different control points and file storage units is what's keeping my feet cold. The only medicine that I can think of against this is to limit the versatility even further: It works only with the peripherals that we have tested and approved. And new streaming media services are then not likely to be implemented. Maybe they are not of much interest to the fans of this Absolute Performance machine anyway?

[jewa]

I think this is what we’re all waiting for!!!

[DelNaja]

Thank you, Fredrik. Interesting thoughts!

The only medicine that I can think of against this is to limit the versatility even further: It works only with the peripherals that we have tested and approved. And new streaming media services are then not likely to be implemented. Maybe they are not of much interest to the fans of this Absolute Performance machine anyway?

Speaking for myself, I would have no problem with either of the above mentioned aspects. If a Lejonklou DS player would mean choosing a specific NAS/switch/ethernet cables etc., then so be it. I could live without the possibility of any streaming services.

I realise it's a mighty challenge, but I do hope you get there some day.

[Charlie1]

Solving every possible future issue with different control points and file storage units is what's keeping my feet cold. The only medicine that I can think of against this is to limit the versatility even further: It works only with the peripherals that we have tested and approved. And new streaming media services are then not likely to be implemented. Maybe they are not of much interest to the fans of this Absolute Performance machine anyway?

Hi Fredrik, what about local storage on the device? Isn't that what Naim offer? I like the idea of on-board storage and something less for me to fuss over and want to optimise, although I realise it passes the buck over to your side.

[lejonklou]

Speaking for myself, I would have no problem with either of the above mentioned aspects. If a Lejonklou DS player would mean choosing a specific NAS/switch/ethernet cables etc., then so be it. I could live without the possibility of any streaming services.

Cool. I feel the same and I know a couple of others who do too. How many in total is hard to know, I suspect it will depend on just how good it sounds.

Hi Fredrik, what about local storage on the device? Isn't that what Naim offer? I like the idea of on-board storage and something less for me to fuss over and want to optimise, although I realise it passes the buck over to your side.

Local storage could be nice, for the simplicity it offers. It needs to be upgradeable, however. And it needs to be optimal performance-wise. I am currently unsure of both these aspects, but the aim remains simplicity.

Another issue worthy of consideration is file formats. There is PCM with various bits and sampling rate, there's DSD with various sampling rates and there's Meridian's new MQA. A player optimised for performance will need to decide upon a list of priority. It's impossible to make a player that is optimised for all formats.

[doze84]

Would it be possible to put a little I2s connector on the back, for experimenting with streaming, like in this example. I see that more and more dac's have i2s input, I'm aware that this is no guarantee for good sound, but maybe it makes it possible achive. I'm not sure of the outcome of gluing a little Raspberry Pi on the back of an otherwise musical Lejonklou ds. Maybe I2s has the same problems as Spdif.

https://volumio.org/raspberry-pi-i2s-da ... s-so-good/

[Music Lover]

Raspberry Pi

Working in a consultant company, and the Pi is hot for the moment.
You can do amazing stuff with it!
Great for small simple application. It CAN be worth testing...

[rowlandhills]

There's an interesting thread over on the Linn forum here:

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=19097

It's focused on using the Raspberry Pi as a media player (with an appropriate DAC). Obviously nothing like as good as even a Sneaky DS, but very cheap and can be nicely integrated to a Linn "ecosystem" in terms of using Kinsky, Kazoo etc. for control points. I've had a bit of a play and will be doing more to allow me to have music in the kids' rooms, as background in the kitchen etc.

[Music Lover]

Hi all.
It has been a bit OT in the Krystal thread. Let's continue here...

We have requests for DSD-support, please elaborate. Why is that preferable?

PS
A mono version, please no ;) I have enough issues finding space for Sagatun mono's in my rack :)

[matthias]

We have requests for DSD-support, please elaborate. Why is that preferable?

Because I like it.

Matt

[rowlandhills]

Hi all. A mono version, please no ;) I have enough issues finding space for Sagatun mono's in my rack :)

Now there's an interesting thought. Mono streamers could lead to a rack by each speaker, with a "Lenjonklou DS Mono", Sagatun Mono and Tundra Mono, and nothing shared between left and right channels except a couple of optical leads to synchronize the DS and Sagatun...

[Charlie1]

Isn't Fredrik more of an electronics specialist though? A streamer would require a lot of software skills which means collaboration, not just for a period of development but ongoing for the lifetime of the product.

[ThomasOK]

Hi all. A mono version, please no ;) I have enough issues finding space for Sagatun mono's in my rack :)

Now there's an interesting thought. Mono streamers could lead to a rack by each speaker, with a "Lenjonklou DS Mono", Sagatun Mono and Tundra Mono, and nothing shared between left and right channels except a couple of optical leads to synchronize the DS and Sagatun...

Which is why we need a true dual-mono MC phono stage (with no shared grounds as in the Urika) so we can have complete separation from the cartridge all the way to the speakers.

[More wants more]

Which is why we need a true dual-mono MC phono stage (with no shared grounds as in the Urika) so we can have complete separation from the cartridge all the way to the speakers.

+1

[matthias]

Which is why we need a true dual-mono MC phono stage (with no shared grounds as in the Urika) so we can have complete separation from the cartridge all the way to the speakers.

+2

But please with an additional gain setting of 56dB for higher output MCs.

Matt

[macrotech2]

So the separated DS Killer thread is hijacked in three posts :-)

[matthias]

So the separated DS Killer thread is hijacked in three posts :-)

Analogue rules.

Matt

[macrotech2]

Isn't Fredrik more of an electronics specialist though? A streamer would require a lot of software skills which means collaboration, not just for a period of development but ongoing for the lifetime of the product.

Back on track. Last I heard from the man himself he does have collaborators, but that was a while ago. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed on this one. I'm become disillusioned with Linn finding a new way to fleece existing Klimax DS owners every few years. There must be a streamer that comes close enough to a Klimax DS that isn't stupid money.

[tokenbrit]

Curious in a Lejonklou Streaming Device (LSD) and how a Mono version (with separate clocking for L & R ?) would keep both channels in sync (digitally) - assuming it needs to - or whether it would be just the analogue stages that would benefit from no shared grounds...