Through Displayport on the HTPC.per wrote:How do you take the audio signal from the HTPC to the ADA?
/ Jacob
Tundra Mono 2 in a Cinema?
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Re: Tundra Mono 2 in a Cinema?
/ Jacob
Re: Tundra Mono 2 in a Cinema?
Here is part 4 of my Tundra Mono 2 review.
Break-in
My first experience with the Tundra Mono 2 was a blast and I was very excited to hear how the performance would change during break-in. The short answer is: Tundra Mono 2 is very sensitive to both break-in and warm-up. It took about three days of usage until the performance became stable and during these three days I had many "hell yeah" and "hmm, something is not right" moments. After the three days, the low performing moments were gone. I do believe that it is still improving slightly but it is not as noticeable as before.
Warm-up
I never turn off the Tundra Monos because they do not perform optimal during the first 30-40 minutes from being powered on. This is normal and something I experience with all "high performing" hifi equipment. Once warm, the performance is very stable even if I don't play anything for hours.
Main idling current
Power amplifiers have an idling current, which means that they draw power even if they are not playing music. This can be adjusted on most power amps and it is really worthwhile because it makes a big impact on the performance of the unit. The idling current is affected by the temperature of the room where your amps are located. It can also drift over time (although it takes years). The ability to adjust the idling current is nothing unique to the Tundra. But how you do it is very unique. Instead of having to perform a risky task of opening the case while the amp is running, all you need to do is to connect a multimeter to a 3.5mm trim port on the back of the Tundra. You can then adjust the idling current by turning a trim knob with a screw driver (also on the outside of the unit). Each pair of Tundra Monos is delivered with a multimeter with the optimal current value written on it. It is really super easy to adjust - kudos to Fredrik for this innovation.
I made a couple of tests to hear how important idle current tuning is. I have a separate room where all my electronics are located (separated from the cinema itself). I adjusted my Tundras to 20.3V when the room temperature was 21°C and then closed the door. The next day, temperature had increased to 31°C and the trim values had all increased to about 22V. I played a song twice at 22V, then re-adjusted the trim value to 20.3V and listened again. I could hear a difference, but it wasn't huge. I waited 1 hour, played the same song again and this time it was noticeably more tuneful, especially in the bass. I waited another couple of hours and played the song again and now the overall sound was much tighter and more emotional. I then opened the door to the electronics room and the next day the temperature had dropped to 21.5°C and trim values were now between 18-19V. Again, I could easily hear that the performance was worse than 20.3V, it sounded very similar to the 22V trim. A bit sluggish, slow. I re-adjusted to 20.3V, waited two hours and now the performance was much better. It seems that adjusting the idling current does not give immediate effect, but after 2-3 hours it was easy to hear the improvement of the trimming. (Yes, I have a very good sound memory). After these discoveries, I have a great respect for how important the idling current adjustment is and the fact that it is so easy to do on the Tundra is a real game changer.
Power resources
Tundra Mono 2 is rated to deliver 40W of power to a speaker with 8 ohm resistance, a number that might discourage people from using this amp with speakers that are hard to drive. I can admit that this is the primary reason that I have not tried the Tundra earlier. All my previous speakers had low sensitivity and I like to play loud to get the real cinema feeling.
The JBL 3677 has a sensitivity of 99dB (1W @ 1m) and 40W is more than enough to drive these speakers. The bottleneck will be the 26V peak voltage, that when reached, will cause clipping. This never happened while playing music even at disco levels (I had to increase the volume to the point where I no longer could be in the room to push the amps to clipping with music).
Movie soundtracks are different from music because they are usually much more dynamic. A typical music track is recorded so that the peaks are close to the 0dB point. Movie tracks are recorded so that the normal scenes peak at around -20dB. The headroom between -20dB and 0dB is used for special effects that are supposed to be powerful. My cinema is calibrated to the THX reference level, which means that when the signal is at -20dB the playback in my seat is at 85dB. When the signal peaks at 0dB, the playback in my seat will be at 105dB (and the sub is calibrated even higher, to 115dB at 0dB signal). 105dB - that is a lot! Yes, but it used rarely. Most movies reach these peaks during less than one minute of the entire movie. The average of the entire track is most likely somewhere between 80 and 85dB.
During the 105/115dB peaks, the Tundra does struggle, especially with the subwoofer. I managed to get the sub to clip quite easily. The 3677 was less of a problem, most likely because everything below 80hz is sent to the subwoofer. By increasing the X-over point to 120hz, I eliminated all clipping in the front channels.
Conclusion: The power of the Tundra Mono 2 is more than enough to drive both 3677 and 4645C for music playback. Movies at reference level require more power, especially for the subwoofer. However, reference level is a bit louder than most people would play their systems and by just lowering the volume a couple of steps the clipping is a non-issue. Overall, I am extremely impressed how well the Tundra Mono can drive these speakers and except for the subwoofer, I have no need for more power.
Fredrik, can you make a solution to bridge several Tundra Monos for one channel? (Ha, ha)
Whats next?
I am going to try to get my hands on a Klimax DS to hear it through the JBL/Tundra combo. Fredrik will be invited, so expect our impressions in this thread later on.
Rock on!
/ Jacob
Break-in
My first experience with the Tundra Mono 2 was a blast and I was very excited to hear how the performance would change during break-in. The short answer is: Tundra Mono 2 is very sensitive to both break-in and warm-up. It took about three days of usage until the performance became stable and during these three days I had many "hell yeah" and "hmm, something is not right" moments. After the three days, the low performing moments were gone. I do believe that it is still improving slightly but it is not as noticeable as before.
Warm-up
I never turn off the Tundra Monos because they do not perform optimal during the first 30-40 minutes from being powered on. This is normal and something I experience with all "high performing" hifi equipment. Once warm, the performance is very stable even if I don't play anything for hours.
Main idling current
Power amplifiers have an idling current, which means that they draw power even if they are not playing music. This can be adjusted on most power amps and it is really worthwhile because it makes a big impact on the performance of the unit. The idling current is affected by the temperature of the room where your amps are located. It can also drift over time (although it takes years). The ability to adjust the idling current is nothing unique to the Tundra. But how you do it is very unique. Instead of having to perform a risky task of opening the case while the amp is running, all you need to do is to connect a multimeter to a 3.5mm trim port on the back of the Tundra. You can then adjust the idling current by turning a trim knob with a screw driver (also on the outside of the unit). Each pair of Tundra Monos is delivered with a multimeter with the optimal current value written on it. It is really super easy to adjust - kudos to Fredrik for this innovation.
I made a couple of tests to hear how important idle current tuning is. I have a separate room where all my electronics are located (separated from the cinema itself). I adjusted my Tundras to 20.3V when the room temperature was 21°C and then closed the door. The next day, temperature had increased to 31°C and the trim values had all increased to about 22V. I played a song twice at 22V, then re-adjusted the trim value to 20.3V and listened again. I could hear a difference, but it wasn't huge. I waited 1 hour, played the same song again and this time it was noticeably more tuneful, especially in the bass. I waited another couple of hours and played the song again and now the overall sound was much tighter and more emotional. I then opened the door to the electronics room and the next day the temperature had dropped to 21.5°C and trim values were now between 18-19V. Again, I could easily hear that the performance was worse than 20.3V, it sounded very similar to the 22V trim. A bit sluggish, slow. I re-adjusted to 20.3V, waited two hours and now the performance was much better. It seems that adjusting the idling current does not give immediate effect, but after 2-3 hours it was easy to hear the improvement of the trimming. (Yes, I have a very good sound memory). After these discoveries, I have a great respect for how important the idling current adjustment is and the fact that it is so easy to do on the Tundra is a real game changer.
Power resources
Tundra Mono 2 is rated to deliver 40W of power to a speaker with 8 ohm resistance, a number that might discourage people from using this amp with speakers that are hard to drive. I can admit that this is the primary reason that I have not tried the Tundra earlier. All my previous speakers had low sensitivity and I like to play loud to get the real cinema feeling.
The JBL 3677 has a sensitivity of 99dB (1W @ 1m) and 40W is more than enough to drive these speakers. The bottleneck will be the 26V peak voltage, that when reached, will cause clipping. This never happened while playing music even at disco levels (I had to increase the volume to the point where I no longer could be in the room to push the amps to clipping with music).
Movie soundtracks are different from music because they are usually much more dynamic. A typical music track is recorded so that the peaks are close to the 0dB point. Movie tracks are recorded so that the normal scenes peak at around -20dB. The headroom between -20dB and 0dB is used for special effects that are supposed to be powerful. My cinema is calibrated to the THX reference level, which means that when the signal is at -20dB the playback in my seat is at 85dB. When the signal peaks at 0dB, the playback in my seat will be at 105dB (and the sub is calibrated even higher, to 115dB at 0dB signal). 105dB - that is a lot! Yes, but it used rarely. Most movies reach these peaks during less than one minute of the entire movie. The average of the entire track is most likely somewhere between 80 and 85dB.
During the 105/115dB peaks, the Tundra does struggle, especially with the subwoofer. I managed to get the sub to clip quite easily. The 3677 was less of a problem, most likely because everything below 80hz is sent to the subwoofer. By increasing the X-over point to 120hz, I eliminated all clipping in the front channels.
Conclusion: The power of the Tundra Mono 2 is more than enough to drive both 3677 and 4645C for music playback. Movies at reference level require more power, especially for the subwoofer. However, reference level is a bit louder than most people would play their systems and by just lowering the volume a couple of steps the clipping is a non-issue. Overall, I am extremely impressed how well the Tundra Mono can drive these speakers and except for the subwoofer, I have no need for more power.
Fredrik, can you make a solution to bridge several Tundra Monos for one channel? (Ha, ha)
Whats next?
I am going to try to get my hands on a Klimax DS to hear it through the JBL/Tundra combo. Fredrik will be invited, so expect our impressions in this thread later on.
Rock on!
/ Jacob
Re: Tundra Mono 2 in a Cinema?
Exciting fourth part, Jacob!
I was not around to hear the changes during break-in, so it's nice to read about them.
The only thing I'd like to question is that most amps have an adjustable idling current. Lots of them don't have anything to adjust whatsoever - the idling current depends on the accuracy of a couple of fixed components. Usually it's a couple of % off to begin with and becomes a lot more over time.
The power amps that do have an adjustment for the idling current, on the circuit board inside, should not be adjusted by the user. First of all because it's difficult without the right knowledge and measurements. And secondly because if you adjust it optimally with an open lid, it will not be optimal when the lid is later closed and the amp put back where it normally sits.
I don't know how many other amps exist that have an external trim feature like Tundra Mono 2 has. I haven't yet heard of any, but perhaps someone can enlighten me?
I was not around to hear the changes during break-in, so it's nice to read about them.
The only thing I'd like to question is that most amps have an adjustable idling current. Lots of them don't have anything to adjust whatsoever - the idling current depends on the accuracy of a couple of fixed components. Usually it's a couple of % off to begin with and becomes a lot more over time.
The power amps that do have an adjustment for the idling current, on the circuit board inside, should not be adjusted by the user. First of all because it's difficult without the right knowledge and measurements. And secondly because if you adjust it optimally with an open lid, it will not be optimal when the lid is later closed and the amp put back where it normally sits.
I don't know how many other amps exist that have an external trim feature like Tundra Mono 2 has. I haven't yet heard of any, but perhaps someone can enlighten me?
Re: Tundra Mono 2 in a Cinema?
Thanks for correcting me on this detail. I have owned one poweramp in the past that had adjustable idling current - it was a NAD 320 from Hifiklubben. I just assumed that if that amp had this adjustment, it would be common.lejonklou wrote:The only thing I'd like to question is that most amps have an adjustable idling current. Lots of them don't have anything to adjust whatsoever - the idling current depends on the accuracy of a couple of fixed components.
Anyway - it is a fantastic feature that makes Tundra Mono 2 an even more unique product.
/ Jacob
Re: Tundra Mono 2 in a Cinema?
Ok! Was the adjustment on the outside? How did one know the setting and which the optimal value was?jajo wrote:I have owned one poweramp in the past that had adjustable idling current - it was a NAD 320 from Hifiklubben.
Re: Tundra Mono 2 in a Cinema?
No, it was on the inside. Impossible for the user to trim, it had to be done in the store.lejonklou wrote:Ok! Was the adjustment on the outside? How did one know the setting and which the optimal value was?jajo wrote:I have owned one poweramp in the past that had adjustable idling current - it was a NAD 320 from Hifiklubben.
It was long before my Linn era, I have really no idea if the amp was better after the adjustment. All I remember is that it was running hotter.
/ Jacob
Re: Tundra Mono 2 in a Cinema?
This thread continues to remain interesting.... jajo, it's clear that you know a lot about cinema installations and it's been good to get the insights regarding the Mono 2s and how they deliver in a slightly different context, ie. sound effects and dialogue vs music.
Please remember to post final images..... once the room is complete and you've had the x8 Sagatuns installed !
Please remember to post final images..... once the room is complete and you've had the x8 Sagatuns installed !
LP12_Radikal/2_Keel_Karousel_Ittok III_Akiva. Ak Tuner. UDP-205. Kontrol/2. Solo_Ak 212. 2250_Ak 225
Re: Tundra Mono 2 in a Cinema?
I heard from Fredrik that there are some readers of this thread that are thinking about ordering the JBL 3677. I feel that I should clarify a few things.
* Despite their size and big woofer, the 3677 is not a full-range speaker. They are tuned to be used with a sub and I would not recommend using them without one (unless you don't need output below 80hz).
* These speakers are well built, but ugly. They are built to be placed behind an acoustically transparent screen.
* You wont be able to use banana plugs on your speaker cables. 3677 comes with barrier strip terminals which means that you need to use raw cable. There are several people on the internet who changed the terminals but I have no idea how hard it is.
* Treble extension is quite limited. You won't have much extension above 15khz. This is a non-issue for me and the material I am playing, but maybe it would be a bigger issue for people listening a lot to classical music. I don't know.
If you have any specific question about these speakers, please send me a PM and I will answer them.
/ Jacob
* Despite their size and big woofer, the 3677 is not a full-range speaker. They are tuned to be used with a sub and I would not recommend using them without one (unless you don't need output below 80hz).
* These speakers are well built, but ugly. They are built to be placed behind an acoustically transparent screen.
* You wont be able to use banana plugs on your speaker cables. 3677 comes with barrier strip terminals which means that you need to use raw cable. There are several people on the internet who changed the terminals but I have no idea how hard it is.
* Treble extension is quite limited. You won't have much extension above 15khz. This is a non-issue for me and the material I am playing, but maybe it would be a bigger issue for people listening a lot to classical music. I don't know.
If you have any specific question about these speakers, please send me a PM and I will answer them.
/ Jacob