Monos (Sagatun & Tundra) - questions after upgrade

[tokenbrit]

I got my Monos upgraded to 1.1 & 2.0 about a month ago and admit to a few challenges since getting them home & set up again...

I had the Sagatuns in one rack, and the Tundras in a rack alongside, so pre-amps & power-amps arranged vertically side by side, rather than horizontally with pre-amps on the same level of each rack, and power-amps on the level below... The previous set-up had been necessitated by the short optical control cable for the Sagatun Monos, but I got a longer cable from Fredrik, via Thomas, to allow me to move the units to side-by-side.

Original set-up
Source - Source
SagML - TunMR (Left - Right)
SagMR - TunML (Right - Left)
I switched up left & right to negate any potential advantage or disadvantage to 1 channel being on 1 level

New set-up
Source - Source
SagML - SagMR
TunML - TunMR

Well, the new Monos, particularly the extra bass from the Tundra Mono 2.0s, quickly highlighted that my speaker position needed tweaking... The sweet-spot for best listening had always been a bit narrow, so I wanted to pull the speakers away from the wall, AND set them wider apart. The only way to achieve this was to move the racks - so all change!

Now to the observations, and questions:
- has anyone else noticed that they need to re-tune their speakers following Sagatun and/or Tundra upgrades? I'm not surprised that mine needed it, but haven't seen it mentioned by others... Maybe it's 'a given'.
- even with the longer optical control cable, it's at its limit with the Sagatuns on the same level of side-by-side racks, and I'm noticing that I have to be a little careful with the remote to keep them in sync... This morning I was close to the units watching the LEDs to make sure the 2 units were in step, and noticed a faint 'click' from the speakers with each step in volume. I'd not noticed that before - is that normal?

With regard the upgrades to 1.1 & 2.0 - they mess you up ... in a good way ;) I finally got the speakers to a new position where I'm not hearing the inadequate set-up over the music. Don't get me wrong: the system has always played music; it's just that the enjoyment was tempered by the set-up. No blame on the upgrades - they make it easier to dial-in the set-up while always tempting you by doing their best to present the music that's there - the music just comes through more & more as you get nearer & nearer to the ideal set-up, or best compromise within your room :)

I was starting to think that I should consider new, better speakers, but that can wait! Now that I have adjusted almost everything, all I can say is wow - finding albums that I haven't listened to in a while, turning the volume up, and just grinning; be it pogoing to rock, or conducting classical - happy, happy!!

[lejonklou]

Thank you for the report, tokenbrit! It makes me happy to hear that you're pleased with the upgrades.

- has anyone else noticed that they need to re-tune their speakers following Sagatun and/or Tundra upgrades? I'm not surprised that mine needed it, but haven't seen it mentioned by others... Maybe it's 'a given'.

In my experience so far: Usually no re-tuning is necessary, but occasionally it happens.

- even with the longer optical control cable, it's at its limit with the Sagatuns on the same level of side-by-side racks, and I'm noticing that I have to be a little careful with the remote to keep them in sync...

You shouldn't need to be careful with the remote, it should just work fine. The link from unit 1 (Master) to unit 2 (Servant) is however quite sensitive. It's right on the edge of where communication is 100% and the reason is that this ultra-low power optical link solution really benefits sound compared to increasing power. With more power we could have used much longer optical cables, but with the current priority on optimal sound, the 0.75 m long silver colored one that you have is the limit.

There are some things that you can check and the first one is that the optical cable is physically perfectly fitted to its connectors in both ends. The second one is that you can change which unit is Master and which is Servant by sliding those tiny rear switches with something sharp - and changing connectors in both ends. The reason for this swap is that sometimes one emitter/receiver pair is a tiny bit more efficient/sensitive than the other.

If you still have occasional volume out-of-synch problems (if it's just one step off please note that they normally catch up at every decade - 40, 50, 60, 70, etc - if you let it climb and release the button there) it can be remedied by service at your distributor. When the second batch of Sagatun Mono's was made, I made a slight physical alteration of how the receiver is fitted to the board that raises it 0.5 mm and this improves the reception slightly. So far every second batch unit has had zero transmission errors with the 0.75 m cable. The first batch was tested with 0.5 m cable but really should have zero problems with 0.75 m as well.

This morning I...//...noticed a faint 'click' from the speakers with each step in volume. I'd not noticed that before - is that normal?

Yes, perfectly normal. Sagatun doesn't mute between each change of volume, so there is a faint ' click' with each step.

Thank you for the praise!

[tokenbrit]

Quick switch of Master - Servant appears to have improved matters. It was OK before - catching up at every decade, but I needed to pause with the remote, and press again for the next decade so that one didn't start on the next decade before the other had caught up. First impression after making the switch is that it's just on the right side of reliable, rather than one step beyond... cue Madness :)

I'll keep it it mind to ask Thomas to tweak the Sagatun with the slightly less sensitive receiver next time the systems are up there, but no hurry on that even as it was before - definitely not now after switching Masters. Thanks!

[lejonklou]

It shouldn't be OK, it should be perfect.

It could also be the optical cable. If you email or pm me your address, I can send you a new one.

[DelNaja]

I, too, have had issues with the volume sync on my Sagatun Monos, although they are not related to an upgrade (I have not upgraded to 1.1 yet). It's been like that since new.

Sometimes, hard to say how frequently but maybe once every two months, the volume gets out of sync. When that happens, the only solution I have come up with is to lower the volume all the way down, to the bottom. When I rise the volume, all is good. Both units are in sync again.

So, if I understood the previous posts correctly, a sync problem should correct itself when passing a decade? How exactly should it behave? When I've encountered the problem, passing a decade has not solved anything.

Could a faulty optical cable be the issue?

[lejonklou]

Hi DelNaja!

That a sudden one step difference can be corrected at a decade is not automatic, but due to the fact that there is a pause there. So if the volume climbs rapidly and you reach a decade, you can release the button just before it continues to climb. In that pause for the leading unit, the lagging unit will catch up.

I can send you a new cable, so we can rule that out. Or maybe if you are planning to upgrade it to 1.1, I could have a look at the link at the same time?

[tokenbrit]

It shouldn't be OK, it should be perfect.

It could also be the optical cable. If you email or pm me your address, I can send you a new one.

Thanks. I will PM you.

[DelNaja]

Hi DelNaja!

That a sudden one step difference can be corrected at a decade is not automatic, but due to the fact that there is a pause there. So if the volume climbs rapidly and you reach a decade, you can release the button just before it continues to climb. In that pause for the leading unit, the lagging unit will catch up.

I can send you a new cable, so we can rule that out. Or maybe if you are planning to upgrade it to 1.1, I could have a look at the link at the same time?

Thank you, Fredrik! Yes, I see now how it can be done in the decade pass. Tricky, though. Well, if it fails there's always the turn-it-all-the-way-to-the-bottom alternative.

This is a very small issue, so no need to act right away. I'll be upgrading sometime soon, so I could put the optical cable in the box and you can then check that out. I'll let you know when the units are sent.

[lejonklou]

Ok DelNaja, that sounds good!

[ThomasOK]

Tokenbrit, glad to hear you are enjoying the upgrades. The new monos, both Sagatun and Tundra are really something special. I have not normally found the need to reposition the speakers after upgrade to TM2s, however if the speaker position is not optimal in the bass range the extra bass power and definition of the TM2s would certainly highlight it. Interestingly I did find the need to reposition my speakers a bit when I put a Kandid into my system which was also a case of a more powerful and clearer bass making the system sound a little overblown in the bass. Moving the big ATCs 3/4" further out from the wall really brought everything together. So it is certainly possible for an upgrade to cause a change in optimal speaker position.

Sorry to hear about the sync problem but good to know switching the Master/Servant has helped. My personal SM1.1s seem to keep in sync smoothly all the time. I am using the longer optical cable with side by side placement as you saw when you were over at the house.

[tokenbrit]

Tokenbrit, glad to hear you are enjoying the upgrades. The new monos, both Sagatun and Tundra are really something special. I have not normally found the need to reposition the speakers after upgrade to TM2s, however if the speaker position is not optimal in the bass range the extra bass power and definition of the TM2s would certainly highlight it. Interestingly I did find the need to reposition my speakers a bit when I put a Kandid into my system which was also a case of a more powerful and clearer bass making the system sound a little overblown in the bass. Moving the big ATCs 3/4" further out from the wall really brought everything together. So it is certainly possible for an upgrade to cause a change in optimal speaker position.

Sorry to hear about the sync problem but good to know switching the Master/Servant has helped. My personal SM1.1s seem to keep in sync smoothly all the time. I am using the longer optical cable with side by side placement as you saw when you were over at the house.

Thanks for the insight. Yes, I did see on the visit although I was distracted by the musical differences in the demo... in a good way, but distracted none the less. The racks that I'm using currently are probably a little wider than the Harmoni, so the 0.75m optical cable is only just long enough. No sharp bends though, and Master-Servant switch did help. Would be nice to eliminate the cable but absolutely no rush, and will have to remember to pack the Sagatuns for my next visit to Ann Arbor for a tweak of the receiver position. It's easily manageable & reliable using the decade pause!