Any experiences going from KCT to latest spec tundra monos?

[bonzo]

I'm seriously considering upgrading my KCT to current spec tundra monos, however as I'm in the US, demo is unlikely. I always thought I'd go for latest Klimax solos, but based on all feedback I'm not sure that's the way to go. I've got 242mk2, ekos 2, Akiva, lingo2, 2 Lintos, keel, KK dynamic. I realize Radikal is a must and plan to go that direction asap. My Main concern is will the tundra monos drive my 242s to high enough levels. I listen to a lot of Zeppelin, Floyd, heavier stuff such as Tool and Rage... Are these amps simply way more musical than what I have or do they also offer more power/ volume/ pressure? Do they have that "never quit" feeling like solos do?
Thanks everyone!
Jon

[Ozzzy189]

Once you have heard tundra monos (latest spec) even solos can't compete never mind the twin. Fredrik has created a stunning amplifier and it's much better than its predecessor. Think of a stop/start quality to the music with no overhang or fuzziness. They sound so natural without distortion and you WILL know what I mean once you have had them a few days, then going back to a twin you'll see what I'm talking about. They match with 242 absolutely fine and if you're a metal head you'll love them. However, as a metal headless I'm surprised that you have 242's, they're not your typical rock monster! ☺
You can't go wrong with TM 2.0 I wasn't blown away by the original ones despite loving the tundra stereo to bits, good but not great and worth the extra I thought. All that has changed.
You won't regret getting mono 2, seriously, just read some of the posts around the forum.
Good luck with your quest.
All the best
Ozzzy

[lejonklou]

Hi Jon!

Zeppelin, Floyd, Tool and Rage - I like it!

I agree with Ozzzy that Mono 2 have a very precise punch.

Regarding how far you can turn up the volume: How loud are you playing today?

[bonzo]

Optimal volume is 67 however I enjoy pushing it to mid 80s

[Ozzzy189]

Just buy em, you'll not regret it. I'm demoing as I type and it's just incredible what Fredrik has achieved with all of his products.

[lejonklou]

OK, thanks!

Have you used a digital source and seen where the volume then ends up?

The reason I'm asking is that vinyl records vary more in loudness than most digital files, so it's hard to know exactly how loud a certain volume setting is when playing vinyl. Admittedly some digital files are below full output, but with those who are not - and using a source that outputs 2 Vrms - the loudness you'll get with a pair of Mono's is equivalent to volume 70 on your current system. Above that your Mono's will start clipping.

Playing the same full output file on your Twin, the maximal volume is 74. Above that your Twin will start clipping.

The equivalent maximal volume for a pair of Solo's is 78.

These are theoretical maximal volumes, based on voltage only. Difficult loudspeaker loads might lower the limits slightly, but they can never become higher. In addition, some amps may switch off or start noisy fans due to getting hot.

[Music Lover]

I went from Solos/242s to TM2/242s and love it!
Like to play loud and even if I can't push as much now it's ok.
But it's more music now,that's all that matters.
Go for it!!

[macrotech2]

I went KCT/Dynamik to Tundra Mono 1s - big improvement. The Mono 2s were an even bigger improvement. Go for it!

[ThomasOK]

I agree with the others on here that the Tundra Mono 2s are musically superior to the Solos in my listening and they do have very good punch. They will play pretty loud with 242s but, like all amps, they do have their limits. One of the things to be aware of is that the Tundra amps have a much different clipping profile than the Linn amps. With the current Linn amps (and many others in the industry, likely due to protection circuits) the clipping tends to come on gradually with the sound coarsening and sounding more compressed and degenerating to just nasty sounding as you push them more. With Fredrik's amps clipping becomes obvious as soon as it happens and immediately gets much worse if you push it farther. Yet it sounds glorious just before clipping. So when Fredrik mentions that you can play at the equivalent of 70 with a full output CD or DS (because of difference in gain this is actually 78 on the Tundras) what that means is that it will sound wonderful at the equivalent of 69 or 70 but will clip audibly at 71 and clip badly at 72 or 73. Note also that running a Tundra into hard clipping for any amount of time will likely damage your amp. Fredrik does not use the typical protection limiters because of their negative effect on the music and that is what causes this.

I think an example would help. I have a couple of customers with Mono Sagatun 1.1s and Mono Tundra 2s. One of them has fairly large Dynaudios (Focus 380s) in a very large living/dining room (even bigger than the Studio C room in the store which Fredrik can tell you is quite sizable). We had his preamps set with the normal 78 volume limit but there was one record that was causing him a problem. This was the direct disk of "Discovered Again" by Dave Grusin. On the track "Keep Your Eye on the Sparrow" there is some very powerful kick drum and then even more powerful electric bass. Now I will start out by saying that this track had been a problem child for this customer for a long time. When I first went to his house to reconnect his system (he hadn't used it for about a decade) he mentioned the nasty sounds this record caused and then played it for me. At the time his system was an LP12/Lingo1/Ekos1/Arkiv running through a Kairn into a Mark Levinson 125W per channel ML27 and into Martin Logan CLS IIz full range electrostatics which we felt were causing most of the problem. Playing the track caused nasty raspy breakup sounds when the potent bass came along. Over about a year he did major updates to the LP12 (Radikal, Urika, Keel and Kandid - Ekos SE soon), replaced the Kairn with Sagatun Monos, replaced the speakers (which just weren't sounding good to him compared to what he had heard in the store) with the Dynaudio Focus 380s, and replaced the ML27 with Tundra Mono 2s. The noticeability of the problem reduced a little with the turntable upgrades, reduced a lot with the new speakers and almost vanished when the TM2s and Kandid were installed at the same time. However, when I went back to upgrade the Sagatuns to 1.1 he mentioned that the problem was back and he couldn't turn the volume up to the mid 70s without hearing it. My theory is that the Kandid burned in which put more powerful bass out than when it was new out of the box and this caused the increase but I told him I would explore further. When we played it there was just the barest hint of clipping at 72 with it completely clean at 71 and pretty nasty by 74 or 75. (Note I am using the actual volumes indicated with Tundra amps here - subtract 7 to 8 dB to get the volume you would have with a Linn amp.) So the next day at the store I set up the same exact system in our big Studio C and brought in my copy of the same record from home. Playing here I found pretty much the same thing - it could be played cleanly at 72 and clipped at 73 sounding nasty a couple of dB above this. Then I replaced the TM2s with Solos and tried it again. Here I was able to play at the equivalent of 74 or 75 (actual 66 or 67) before the sound started to coarsen a bit and more like 78 where it was noticeably really sounding compressed and amusical.

When I reported back to the customer that he could get another 3 or 4dB, maybe pushing it 6dB, with similar but IMO not quite as musical sound for an additional $15,000 he said no thanks - he'd just play the record a bit lower. Interestingly when I came to his house with this info and another piece of gear for him he was playing a Dave Brubeck recording with a potent drum solo on it so loud that he couldn't hear the doorbell until the solo was over. The amp was showing no strain at this barrage so he was quite confident that this one record is indeed a bit of an aberration. I'm sure there are a few records here and there that would cause early clipping, and if you want to do serious head-banging in a large room this may not be the best choice of amp. But in Studio C (which is 26.1 x 16.4 x 10.8 feet) with Tundra Mono 2s and 242s I can play most anything louder than I want to without a problem and I'm not known for my soft touch on the volume control!

[Ron The Mon]

...upgrading my KCT to current spec tundra monos,... I always thought I'd go for latest Klimax solos,... I've got 242mk2, Ekos 2, Akiva, lingo2, 2 Lintos, keel, KK dynamic. I realize Radikal is a must and plan to go that direction asap. My Main concern is will the tundra monos drive my 242s to high enough levels.

bonzo,
If you primarily, or exclusively, play vinyl, I think most here have missed the boat. Buying an Akurate Radikal and Urika at the same time will give you the most music for the money. Your signature shows you have a Lingo 3, right?

I'd suggest upgrading to Akurate Radikal/Urika first. Then send your Radikal to Tom and have him torque spec it. You then will not even think about a Klimax Radikal at that point. Before, during or after this point, your best value is having Tom optimize your speaker cables. If 2.48 meters works for length in your home, have him maximize the performance of your speaker cables. Wear a diaper before listening; you are warned.

If you are vinyl exclusive, stop for a while. If not, then buy Sagatun Monos. You will then hear FAR more from your KCT/242s than you thought possible. I like the Klimax Kontrol a LOT. Sagatun Mono puts it to shame.

Continuing with the posts in this thread, below is Studio C:

Maxed-out LP12SE/Urika & Akurate streamer, Klimax Kontrol, Tundra Mono2, Linn Isobariks= one hell of a system!

bonzo, it is easy to assume the next step is upgrading power amps after hearing what Tundra Mono2s can do. In fact, all I ever think about is getting Tundra Mono2s! They really are that good. However, Sagatun Monos are much better, especially bang for the buck. And Radikal is off the chart!!! It is hard to dispel those Lejonklou mono power amps though!!!!

Are these amps simply way more musical than what I have or do they also offer more power/ volume/ pressure? Do they have that "never quit" feeling like solos do?

Lastly, think of replacing your KCT for Tundra Mono2s. LASTLY!!!

Tundra Mono2s are absolutely the most fantastic hi-fi component to appear on the market since the Quad 57. Ooops, did I say that out-loud? Yes I did; they are that good. And yes, you should do them last. If you truly understand hi-fi hierarchy, do them last. The 242 is a very competent speaker. If it works well in your room and you like them, upgrade your power-amps last.

Lejonlou Tundra Mono2s offer no more power, volume, or pressure than a KCT. They also offer more than the "never quit feeling" of Solos, let alone KCTs.

In the above pictured system, I brought several records I was listening to currently on my hi-fi. I asked Tom how loud the system could go. He guessed louder so I asked the owner of the Isobariks if he minded us cranking it up. He didn't mind so I threw on "Jump Into The Fire" from Nilsson Shmilsson. This song features the incredible fretless bass playing of Herbie Flowers. It's a tour de force of three power guitars, electric piano, drums, and bass. Throw in some "pretty" piano for contrast and hang on for a wild ride. There is a middle section where there is an incredible doubled drum solo by Jim Gordon and the slightly distorted bass pans left to right.

It was during this section I first heard Lejonklou amp distortion. But only about four or five "snaps" during that song. It sounds nasty!!!!! It is not soft clipping! Every bit of clipping sounds like a woofer bottoming out hard but nastier. Again, we were listening LOUD, very LOUD. I listen loud often and a Tundra Mono2 is far more than I need with Isobariks in my room.

Immediately after the Nilsson tune I went up to both Tundra Mono2s and laid my hand across the tops of the amps and was surprised to find neither was even warm, let alone hot. I find this stunning considering we were powering Isobariks from circa 1983; these are the "difficult" Isobariks with the dual crossovers mounted internally. These speakers are known to shut amps down or blow them up. The Tundras just laughed at them.

I brought this up to Tom and he didn't think it was a big deal but I think it's worth mentioning. Most amps are destroyed by overheating. The Tundra Mono2s don't overheat as an artifact of their design. I would expect them to last quite a bit longer than most amps. Compound this with the horrid sound they make while clipping forcing you to douce the volume, and I'd expect speakers mated to the Tundra Mono2s as well as the amps to last a lifetime.

The bottom line is: Radikal, then Sagatun, then Tundra Mono2s. It pains me to say it, but that is what makes the most sense.

Ron The Mon
Tundra Mono2 Fan

P.S.
I have never been a fan of subwoofers. I have never heard one improve the "tune" of a system and would expect a Radikal, Urika, Sagatun Monos to better the actual "bass" more than vacating your REL.