Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

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ThomasOK
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Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by ThomasOK »

I didn't know whether to put this in the Lejonklou section or in the HiFi one so it can be moved if it is felt appropriate. But since it has some connection to Sagatuns I decided to go ahead and post it here.

Linn as of today has discontinued ALL their analog preamps and integrated amps. The Klimax Kontrol, Akurate Kontrol and Majik-I will be removed from the price list once the current stock runs out. Linn is once again claiming that their digital volume control offers "a lower noise floor and lower distortion than possible in analogue pre-amps" and that there is "no switching loss as this is performed losslessly in the digital domain". They also talk about the advantages of DS integration with the preamp, digital inputs that access the DAC, Exakt Link connections and Space Optimisation technology.

Although I am somewhat surprised that Linn are doing this at this early time in the life of Exakt, and especially surprised that they are discontinuing their entry-level Majik-I which still outperforms anything else in the category and price range, it was obvious with the introduction of Space and Exakt outputs on all DS and DSM units that was heading in this direction. After all what is the point of Space running on my DS when most of my listening is to vinyl which can't make use of it without a DSM. The availability of DS to DSM upgrades for Klimax and Akurate lines are another indication of that direction.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out long term. It is similar to when Linn discontinued CD players in favor of DS players several years back. With the decline of CD sales this has turned out well for Linn. However, the new Linn with its emphasis on the "lossless" nature of digital transport of music and continuing claims of the superiority of this approach - despite the disagreement of a significant number of Linn supporters - is taking a pretty drastic step here. Since, other than the LP12 and associated parts, Linn is taking analog equipment out of their future (how long can it be before they start introducing "lossless" digital amps?) I feel they are throwing away a significant amount of future business with their customers who might wish to upgrade within the line but who aren't willing to embrace the sound or expense of Exakt. It appears time will tell whether this ends up as an intelligent move in terms of future equipment sales or if they have bet the company on the wrong horse. For one thing, other companies are making similar products at lower prices such as the Dynaudio Focus XD integrated digital speakers. When you start throwing the whole "lossless" digital transport idea around it becomes harder to differentiate your products as is already obvious by the confusion on Klimax vs. Akurate Exakt. Time will tell.

From a personal point of view, as a Sagatun owner and the US distributor, I couldn't be happier and I'm very glad I was able to sell my personal KK/2 while it was still worth something. This seems to put Lejonklou in a very good position as not only do they already make preamps for less money that are musically superior to the Klimax and Akurate Kontrol IMHO, but now that competition is gone. To me the Lejonklou Sagatuns are the heir apparent for anybody who still prefers the beauty of analog musical reproduction as they are the only preamps I have heard that I feel are more tuneful, and more musical in every way, than the Linn preamps. Since I have heard a number of examples of Linn's all-digital future and find it uninspiring it looks like Linn will, for me personally, become mostly a source company in the future.
Last edited by ThomasOK on 2015-05-21 08:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by Charlie1 »

Wow - didn't expect that either. Quite surprised.

Maybe they are virtually zero sales and think 'why not?'

I agree it's very good news for Fredrik.

How do folks think this news will impact the 2nd hand KK market, if at all?
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by ThomasOK »

It would be hard to imagine the second hand market for KKs being much worse than it already is. Prices are unusually low with people changing to Exakt or DSMs selling their preamps. Looking at it from the other way around, one has to wonder if the lack of new sales because of the depressed pricing on used models had something to do with the discontinuation?
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by jlrchrds »

While I'm very happy with the sound of my Exakt system (took forever to setup correctly), all this will do is further alienate Linn's customer base. That's not good at all; and creates some hypothetical issues and reinforces some concerns I had before deciding I would take the plunge into Exakt. As an Exakt owner, you are completely dependent on Linn software for any music. Ultimately, an Exakt owner exposes their future listening to the company's ongoing business decisions. What if Linn goes out of business down the road because of poor decision making? This isn't a first... I think they almost folded as a result of Sony and the Unidisc. What does that mean for servicing and software support? This whole concept I bought into has me pidgeonholed. I'm now dependent on a single company for listening due simply to software. I really thought these guys would continue providing products in the Analog realm besides the LP12, and saw any other decision as nuts. Well I am proven wrong. Congratulations Thomas and Frederick! I'll put my money on your increased revenues. You guys will do well given that Linn has decided Analog doesn't have a place in the future. Quite honestly, I don't think this bodes well for Linn's ongoing business.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by anthony »

I can only say I much prefer the latest Kdsm in comparison to a KDS1 and KK, and I still have the option of sagatun monos, so do not see a problem. The KK was dated, still containing Knekt components and no network facility.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by tokenbrit »

To be fair the comparison should be KDSM to KDS2 and KK... How does the preference change when considering LP12 as the source - is LP12 to KDSM better than to KK? If not, then Linn are giving up on providing the best pre-amp to their analogue source customers, forcing them to Exakt or, potentially, driving them away. Apologies if I have don't understand Linn's product range; I find it confusing between KDSM & KEDSM...

Regardless, having heard Sagatun Mono vs KK, the KK was dead anyway! ;)
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by Ozzzy189 »

It might have been dated Anthony but it didn't stop people pushing it! That's not aimed at anyone in particular before I get flamed.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by anthony »

tokenbrit wrote:To be fair the comparison should be KDSM to KDS2 and KK... How does the preference change when considering LP12 as the source - is LP12 to KDSM better than to KK? If not, then Linn are giving up on providing the best pre-amp to their analogue source customers, forcing them to Exakt or, potentially, driving them away. Apologies if I have don't understand Linn's product range; I find it confusing between KDSM & KEDSM...

Regardless, having heard Sagatun Mono vs KK, the KK was dead anyway! ;)
I can only represent customers, some being vinyl addicts, have agreed the KDSM is better than previously using a KK.

So Linn have some preferring Exakt and others agreeing SAgatun Monos are better, so I would be interested as a genuine survey like to identify who would now spend over £8000 on a KK
Please add your names to this list if you wish LInn to continue making it.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by macrotech2 »

Valid arguments about the KK perhaps but they have discontinued all analogue preamps.

Following the same reasoning as the Sagatun Monos killing the KK, will we see Solos discontinued next? :-)
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by Andrew L »

anthony wrote: So Linn have some preferring Exakt and others agreeing SAgatun Monos are better, so I would be interested as a genuine survey like to identify who would now spend over £8000 on a KK
Please add your names to this list if you wish LInn to continue making it.
I would have prefered Linn to have made a better analogue preamp. The KK evolved through dual mono and Dynamik so I am somewhat deflated they feel they can't improve on it along the analogue pathway. Other manufacturers don't seem to have been fazed. Look at the Naim S1 Statement for an all out statement of intent with its drip down upgraded parts for other models recently announced.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by beck »

As an analog addict it is sad news but then again I now only get my fix on the second hand marked and the choices are plenty.
Linn has made a company decision. The future is digital. I don't blame them.
I follow my heart and it tells me to follow the analog path.

I remember the poster from Linn with a real woman and an inflated doll. Linn has made their choice. They are moving towards the third solution. A real woman filled with silicone, using botox and lots of makeup!
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by Music Lover »

Not expected this, even if Linn clearly chosen the Exakt direction.
But we are lucky to have Fredrik!
Andrew L wrote: Look at the Naim S1 Statement for an all out statement of intent with its drip down upgraded parts for other models recently announced.
Anybody that heard or compared the Statement pre/power amps?
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by lejonklou »

Yesterday at Hidden Systems we compared preamps Klimax Kontrol, Sagatun, Sagatun Mono and digital volume from a KDSM/1.

Source was the KDSM/1, power amps Tundra Mono 2 and speakers passive Akudoriks. Cables new Linn Silvers and 2.48m K200 to the speakers (into treble input). Music was Nirvana at volume 70.

I think everyone present thought that digital volume straight from the KDSM/1 to the power amps was the worst performing option.

With Sagatun Monos, it just struck me how über cool Nirvana were.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by tokenbrit »

anthony wrote:I can only represent customers, some being vinyl addicts, have agreed the KDSM is better than previously using a KK.
lejonklou wrote:Yesterday at Hidden Systems we compared preamps Klimax Kontrol, Sagatun, Sagatun Mono and digital volume from a KDSM/1.

...

I think everyone present thought that digital volume straight from the KDSM/1 to the power amps was the worst performing option.
These seem like quite different viewpoints. I appreciate that these are opinions from different customers & different comparisons, but interesting nonetheless...
Is there another way to use the KDSM/1 other than digital volume straight to the power amps? If not, it does seem that discontinuing the KK is questionable...
Just makes me value my Lejonklou components, and appreciate Fredrik's efforts all the more.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by rowlandhills »

tokenbrit wrote:Is there another way to use the KDSM/1 other than digital volume straight to the power amps?
Yes. With an analogue source there is an "Analogue Direct" mode (can't remember the exact name) which is an analogue path throughout the KDSM. However, it (obviously) doesn't then allow SPACE or EXAKT.
Last edited by rowlandhills on 2015-05-21 00:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by tokenbrit »

rowlandhills wrote:
tokenbrit wrote:Is there another way to use the KDSM/1 other than digital volume straight to the power amps?
Yes. With an analogue source there is an "Analogue Direct" mode (can't remember the exact name) which is an analogues path throughout the KDSM. However, it (obviously) doesn't then allow SPACE or EXAKT.
Thanks rowlandhills - the two quotes could be explained by me 'comparing apples & oranges' then, with analogue sources & analogue direct via KDSM being better than KK, but digital sources & digital volume control being worse than using a KK... I'll leave it there - I'm happy with my Sagatuns!
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by macrotech2 »

tokenbrit wrote:
rowlandhills wrote:
tokenbrit wrote:Is there another way to use the KDSM/1 other than digital volume straight to the power amps?
Yes. With an analogue source there is an "Analogue Direct" mode (can't remember the exact name) which is an analogues path throughout the KDSM. However, it (obviously) doesn't then allow SPACE or EXAKT.
Thanks rowlandhills - the two quotes could be explained by me 'comparing apples & oranges' then, with analogue sources & analogue direct via KDSM being better than KK, but digital sources & digital volume control being worse than using a KK... I'll leave it there - I'm happy with my Sagatuns!
I didn't realise until I read the specs that there is an analogue volume control within the KDSM, so we could have tried LP12 in pure analogue mode through DSM/1 vs LP12 direct into the KK. I'm not sure that "analogue sources & analogue direct via KDSM being better than KK" holds. Has this been tried by anyone on the forum?

This comparison is, of course, irrelevant for digital sources, where the conclusion beyond doubt was as you say "digital sources & digital volume control being worse than using a KK". Pity the design won't let you route the DAC output through the analogue volume control in the KDSM - that would be interesting.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by matss »

macrotech2 wrote:I didn't realise until I read the specs that there is an analogue volume control within the KDSM, so we could have tried LP12 in pure analogue mode through DSM/1 vs LP12 direct into the KK. I'm not sure that "analogue sources & analogue direct via KDSM being better than KK" holds. Has this been tried by anyone on the forum?

This comparison is, of course, irrelevant for digital sources, where the conclusion beyond doubt was as you say "digital sources & digital volume control being worse than using a KK". Pity the design won't let you route the DAC output through the analogue volume control in the KDSM - that would be interesting.
I compared LP12 through KDSM vs. KK a few years back and the comparison was not even close (and I understand other people have reached similar conclusions). I kept my KK and invested in a KDS instead.

Just recently I did a extensive comparison (blind) of analog vs Exakt systems (Kaber and Akubariks) using KDSM/1 and Akurate Exaktbox. Here, the Exakt systems won on every occasion and source. Both digital as well as analog sources were preferred through the digital signal chains.

But as far as I know Linn has not officially improved the analog side of KDSM in their updates, so I still take my personal findings from before as valid - if you keep your analog sources in the analog domain I still believe the KK to be a better option than KDSM/1. And I don't really see how doing A/D-D/A on analog source just to use the KDSM/1 digital volume control should do any better from a musical appreciation perspective (but I haven't tried yet).

/mats
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by macrotech2 »

matss wrote:
macrotech2 wrote:I didn't realise until I read the specs that there is an analogue volume control within the KDSM, so we could have tried LP12 in pure analogue mode through DSM/1 vs LP12 direct into the KK. I'm not sure that "analogue sources & analogue direct via KDSM being better than KK" holds. Has this been tried by anyone on the forum?

This comparison is, of course, irrelevant for digital sources, where the conclusion beyond doubt was as you say "digital sources & digital volume control being worse than using a KK". Pity the design won't let you route the DAC output through the analogue volume control in the KDSM - that would be interesting.
I compared LP12 through KDSM vs. KK a few years back and the comparison was not even close (and I understand other people have reached similar conclusions). I kept my KK and invested in a KDS instead.

Just recently I did a extensive comparison (blind) of analog vs Exakt systems (Kaber and Akubariks) using KDSM/1 and Akurate Exaktbox. Here, the Exakt systems won on every occasion and source. Both digital as well as analog sources were preferred through the digital signal chains.

But as far as I know Linn has not officially improved the analog side of KDSM in their updates, so I still take my personal findings from before as valid - if you keep your analog sources in the analog domain I still believe the KK to be a better option than KDSM/1. And I don't really see how doing A/D-D/A on analog source just to use the KDSM/1 digital volume control should do any better from a musical appreciation perspective (but I haven't tried yet).

/mats
Interesting mats, thanks. What I meant with the DAC comment was for the DS part of the KDSM to apply space in the digital domain, DAC convert, then pass through the analogue volume control. This is not currently possible as far as I know, you can use the digital volume control, or no volume control.
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Re: Linn discontinues all analog preamps!

Post by lejonklou »

tokenbrit wrote:
anthony wrote:I can only represent customers, some being vinyl addicts, have agreed the KDSM is better than previously using a KK.
lejonklou wrote:Yesterday at Hidden Systems we compared preamps Klimax Kontrol, Sagatun, Sagatun Mono and digital volume from a KDSM/1.

...

I think everyone present thought that digital volume straight from the KDSM/1 to the power amps was the worst performing option.
These seem like quite different viewpoints. I appreciate that these are opinions from different customers & different comparisons, but interesting nonetheless...
Indeed quite different. What I'm trying to point out is that in this comparison, it's very easy to intentionally or unintentionally make it unfair.

Why? Because in the system with a preamp, you're not comparing product A with B, you're adding an extra component, with extra interconnects and power cords, into the system.

So in order for the system with an analogue preamp to sound better, it needs to both do the job (setting the volume) better AND be well integrated into the system (with proper support, quality mains lead fed from the first or second position in the same distribution block as the rest of the system and good sounding interconnects).

When the analogue preamp is well integrated into the system, the musical differences are much easier to identify and appreciate. And the lower the volume you play at, the bigger the advantages become for analogue volume control.
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