Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-07-08 04:43

Thanks. I was sure that was how it worked but thought it would be good to clarify for the forum.

On another subject, your theory about the Urika appears correct. I thought Linn kept the grounds separate as the RCA sockets are isolated from the case. But I just tested my Urika and when it is powered up there is continuity between the left and right grounds. I wonder if there is any simple way to modify this. I suppose this is another reason two Lintos sounded so good back when I had them (although the Urika is definitely more musical than two Lintos).

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2014-07-08 07:24

lejonklou wrote:Adding offset to specific channels in a multi channel setup is, however, easy. Each Sagatun or Sagatun Mono can be adjusted by its front buttons, and then have its keys locked and be controlled by the Control Link.

The Control Link sends incremental commands, such as VOL +1. Not absolute values. So all Sagatuns in the control chain can be offset up or down without problems.

Thanks Fredrik. Presumably you'd have to reset that every time you turn the amps on though?

hcl · Post by **hcl** » 2014-07-08 09:18

lejonklou wrote:
hcl wrote:I would think that both the KDS and the KDSM has separate outputs so that the ground can be connected at the pre, preventing from any ground loops (if the rest of the system enables).
No, that is not correct. All signal grounds are united in the DS players. There will always be ground loops, except when used with Sagatun Mono, followed by mono power amps.

Interesting, but also a bit strange, as I thought the ground was gonnected at the preamp.Otherwise, the output transformers would provide for a good separation point. They have probably tried what is best.

lejonklou wrote:
hcl wrote:In such a system it might be positive to connect signal ground and mains ground at the pre. Have you tried that? Maybe it could be done as an installation option?
I have tried that and it's worse. There's a long story behind this, but I'll keep it short:

I used to believe that signal and mains grounds should be joined somewhere in the system, and the preamp was the most logical place for this. So in Kikkin, I did just that. With Sagatun, I evaluated it more in detail and found it best to keep the entire signal ground floating, but decoupled with small capacitors at various positions along the way. So a floating signal ground layout is now adopted in all my products.

Chris at Hidden Systems told me the other day that he found it beneficial to keep the DS on one mains distribution block and Sagatun/Tundra Mono's on another. I have not yet tried this but if it does work as a general installation rule, it might have to do with the floating signal ground in my amplifiers, while Linn's sources have a connection between signal and mains ground. I think that Urika has signal and mains grounds joined as well, but I'm not sure.

Erik: How are your mains distribution blocks arranged? Have you tried keeping sources on one and Sagatun/Tundra Mono's on another? From where is the switch and NAS powered relative to the rest of the system?

A short comment might be in order. There are always high impedance connections between the unit circuitry and ground, making for "ground loops" at high frequencies. Becausse of this it is often good to connect the ground to the mains ground at several positions and desig for a very good ground environment (such as the cases of the Klimax products. The solution with several capacitive couplibgs to ground is probably quite good also from a theoretical stand point.

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2014-07-08 14:27

ThomasOK wrote: I suppose this is another reason two Lintos sounded so good back when I had them (although the Urika is definitely more musical than two Lintos).

Your two Linto's are actually the origin of the idea of a mono version of Sagatun in the first place! I came to think about them and nagged on Fredrik to try two Kikkin to evaluate if a mono preamplifier would be a good idea. It turned out to be the case :)

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 2014-07-08 14:45

lejonklou wrote: Erik: How are your mains distribution blocks arranged? Have you tried keeping sources on one and Sagatun/Tundra Mono's on another? From where is the switch and NAS powered relative to the rest of the system?

I have a separate spur from the distribution central. The first outlet is feeding the system via a Clas Ohlson distribution block. The next outlet in the daisy chain is feeding the LSNAS and switch.

I have found the LP 12 to be better with the DS unplugged, not just switched off. I have never tried to connect the DS from another outlet, just tried different orders in the distribution block.

Next challenge is to fit two Urikas inside the plinth...........

/Erik

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-07-08 16:19

lejonklou wrote:
rowlandhills wrote: Adding offset to specific channels in a multi channel setup is, however, easy. Each Sagatun or Sagatun Mono can be adjusted by its front buttons, and then have its keys locked and be controlled by the Control Link.

The Control Link sends incremental commands, such as VOL +1. Not absolute values. So all Sagatuns in the control chain can be offset up or down without problems.
Thanks Fredrik. Presumably you'd have to reset that every time you turn the amps on though?

Yes, switching the Sagatuns off will, with the current firmware, remove the offset. They all start at vol 40.

It was great that you mentioned this! Because I just realised that for people who like to switch their systems off (I seldom do), the firmware in Sagatun could be altered, so that all user settings (remote control limit, max volume, unity gain) and current input and volume setting is saved when Sagatun is switched off. When it's switched back on, it will go straight back to where it was. And the only way to reset all settings would be through a front button reboot.

As it is now, a front button reboot and switching Sagatun off and back on do the same thing.

I will bring this up with Linntek, who is my firmware expert. And if neither he nor any of you object, I think we'll add this to the firmware.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-07-08 22:01

Erik wrote:
lejonklou wrote: Erik: How are your mains distribution blocks arranged? Have you tried keeping sources on one and Sagatun/Tundra Mono's on another? From where is the switch and NAS powered relative to the rest of the system?
I have a separate spur from the distribution central. The first outlet is feeding the system via a Clas Ohlson distribution block. The next outlet in the daisy chain is feeding the LSNAS and switch.

I have found the LP 12 to be better with the DS unplugged, not just switched off. I have never tried to connect the DS from another outlet, just tried different orders in the distribution block.

Next challenge is to fit two Urikas inside the plinth...........

/Erik

The Urika is already two separate boards with the RCAs isolated from the case by plastic. So the question is whether the grounds could be isolated and if this would improve the performance or not.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-07-08 22:03

rowlandhills wrote:
lejonklou wrote:
rowlandhills wrote: Adding offset to specific channels in a multi channel setup is, however, easy. Each Sagatun or Sagatun Mono can be adjusted by its front buttons, and then have its keys locked and be controlled by the Control Link.

The Control Link sends incremental commands, such as VOL +1. Not absolute values. So all Sagatuns in the control chain can be offset up or down without problems.
Thanks Fredrik. Presumably you'd have to reset that every time you turn the amps on though?
Yes, switching the Sagatuns off will, with the current firmware, remove the offset. They all start at vol 40.

It was great that you mentioned this! Because I just realised that for people who like to switch their systems off (I seldom do), the firmware in Sagatun could be altered, so that all user settings (remote control limit, max volume, unity gain) and current input and volume setting is saved when Sagatun is switched off. When it's switched back on, it will go straight back to where it was. And the only way to reset all settings would be through a front button reboot.

As it is now, a front button reboot and switching Sagatun off and back on do the same thing.

I will bring this up with Linntek, who is my firmware expert. And if neither he nor any of you object, I think we'll add this to the firmware.

This sounds like a good idea to me, especially as there is a way to reset it if desired.

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2014-07-08 22:16

Sounds like a good idea to me too.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-07-08 22:18

ThomasOK wrote:The Urika is already two separate boards with the RCAs isolated from the case by plastic. So the question is whether the grounds could be isolated and if this would improve the performance or not.

I have a strong suspicion such a modification won't work well. Ground layouts are complex and many details affect one another. Changing one is in my experience almost always a change for the worse.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-07-09 04:15

lejonklou wrote:
ThomasOK wrote:The Urika is already two separate boards with the RCAs isolated from the case by plastic. So the question is whether the grounds could be isolated and if this would improve the performance or not.
I have a strong suspicion such a modification won't work well. Ground layouts are complex and many details affect one another. Changing one is in my experience almost always a change for the worse.

I pretty much expected that would be the case.

Linntek · Post by **Linntek** » 2014-07-10 09:32

To Frederik.

I'm in Venice (Eraclea), Italy. Back july 22
Cant' answer mails - only recieve.

dave_st185 · Post by **dave_st185** » 2014-07-10 15:41

lejonklou wrote:It was great that you mentioned this! Because I just realised that for people who like to switch their systems off (I seldom do), the firmware in Sagatun could be altered, so that all user settings (remote control limit, max volume, unity gain) and current input and volume setting is saved when Sagatun is switched off. When it's switched back on, it will go straight back to where it was. And the only way to reset all settings would be through a front button reboot.

As it is now, a front button reboot and switching Sagatun off and back on do the same thing.

I will bring this up with Linntek, who is my firmware expert. And if neither he nor any of you object, I think we'll add this to the firmware.

Would such a firmware update be user installable or would the Sagatun have to be returned to the dealer for a firmware upgrade ?

My interest is in keeping the Unity gain feature configured after powering the unit off as I wouldn't want to be setting that up each time it was powered up, which although not likely to be a daily occurrence could still be often enough to become annoying :)

Thanks

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2014-07-10 17:35

I'd imagine it's a Lejonklou performed update judging by the lack of any kind of Internet connectivity on the back of the sagatun, but I've been wrong often enough.

dave_st185 · Post by **dave_st185** » 2014-07-10 18:19

Thanks Ozzzy - Just been looking at some pics of the rear and came to the same conclusion :)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-07-10 19:27

dave_st185 wrote:Would such a firmware update be user installable or would the Sagatun have to be returned to the dealer for a firmware upgrade ?

Retailers and distributors can update the firmware. It's a simple procedure, but the unit needs to be opened for access to the data port. I wanted to have it on the back, but there was no way of routing the port there without messing with the ground planes = not optimal. When closing the lid, I require that a torque tool is used. All torque values are printed inside each unit.

With the current firmware, you only need to press one button on Sagatun after it has been switched on to activate Unity Gain. So it's very simple.

dave_st185 · Post by **dave_st185** » 2014-07-10 21:28

Thanks Fredrik, one button press is pretty cool, I had visions of drilling down through a few menus etc before getting to the settings, so I could probably live with that

Anyway, I'm still saving seeing as I blew my preamp fund a couple of months ago when I couldn't say no to flatcoats last pair of Monos so maybe you'll have it in place by the time I'm ready to have a listen and hopefully make a purchase

Cheers

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-07-11 03:37

I didn't read the post about volume resets closely enough before. It wasn't until the last few posts that I realized that powering the Sagatun down also resets the max volume, remote type and unity gain settings. This is what it appears has been stated. I assume this would also be the case if power was removed from the unit externally (unplugging it, having a power outage, etc.). In this case I think it would be really important to implement the settings saving feature.

mrco99 · Post by **mrco99** » 2014-07-16 00:01

ThomasOk and Chris at Hidden systems, since you both have the complete Tundra line-up available, could either one of you say which combination would have the most musical result when having to choose between the following options:

2x Sagatun mono pre + Tundra stereo power amp
Sagatun stereo pre + 2x Tundra mono power amp

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2014-07-16 01:32

I've heard both and I prefer 2x sagatun and tundra stereo.
However, speakers can certainly change things in this respect. The speakers I heard the combos with was the linn akubarik passive.
I'm sure the other fellas will give their own opinions when they get the opportunity.
Regards,
Ozzzy.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-07-16 05:49

I agree conpletely with Ozzzy in this. Preamps matter more than power amps.

Had an amazing day today at Overture Audio, meeting a lot of enthusiasts. Thank you Thomas O'Keefe and everyone who attended!

I need some sleep now, looking forward to your comments tomorrow!

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-07-16 21:36

Yes, the preamp is more important than the power amp. The hierarchy has yet to fail in my experience. In this specific instance I would also say that I feel there is a bigger musical improvement going from Sagatun Stereo to Mono than there is going from Tundra 1.2 to Mono - although both are very worthwhile improvements.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2014-07-16 22:25

Just a quick note on the Musical Evening last night with Fredrik introducing Sagatun and Sagatun Mono at Overture Audio. We had a really wonderful evening - the system and room were sounding really good, the Sagatuns were exceptional and we received some of the most positive comments we have had from a musical evening. I will write up a more thorough post later but I want to thank Fredrik for making a great presentation and his excellent products for making music so much fun. A great time was had by all who were there.

tokenbrit · Post by **tokenbrit** » 2014-07-17 01:30

Just to add to Fredrik & Tom's posts: the thoroughly musical evening was enjoyably informative, entertaining, and ear-opening, courtesy of some wonderful Lejonklou products. A big thank you to both Fredrik & Tom, and to those I met at Overture Audio. It was a very worthwhile round-trip for me, and it appeared that everyone in attendance had a great time...

I'll have to provide a more detailed write-up nearer the weekend, as it's a 500+ mile drive from home to Ann Arbor, so a 1000+ mile round trip for me in less than 36hrs, and I am pretty tired from the driving, but still have a smile from the musical experience.

A quick summary then to keep you going: Fredrik started with introductions (himself, his goal & approach, his product) before beginning the demo with the Sagatun Stereo... then comparing with the KK/2, going back to the Stereo, then comparing against the Sagatun Monos. Comparisons between pre-amps were typically AABBA, using short sections of tracks with tune-dem preferred, but not prescribed...
The Sagatun Stereo and KK/2 were close, but with different strengths & weaknesses, and a different presentation. I found the music easier to follow on the Sagatun Stereo, but the KK/2 had a bit more 'something' - no clear winner [for me] except on price ;) Then came the Monos... and that ended the comparisons - the Sagatun Monos combined the strengths of the Stereo & the KK/2, no weaknesses that I could determine, and added it's own very special something in that you stopped listening to the system and just listened to the music... Quite amazing.

The demos were all conducted by Fredrik using Tom's LP12. At the end of the evening I had a quick comparison between Sagatun Stereo & Monos using a DS. The Stereo was very good. The Monos were simply better. I could've lived with the Stereo if only I hadn't heard the Monos :)

There were more comparisons between inputs, and other things. I can give a summary of those later, and go into more detail of what I thought of the products if anyone is interested, but I do urge you to listen for yourselves if you get the chance. You are in for a real treat!

Thanks again Fredrik, and Tom.

Sources: Tom's top-spec LP12, and an Akurate DS for 'digital whusses'* (me)
Pre-Amps: Sagatun Stereo & Sagatun Monos, with Tom's KK/2 for comparisons
Power-Amps: Tundra Monos
Speakers: Dynaudio Focus 380s

* I think that was Ron's assessment of asking to hear a source other the LP12 ;)

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2014-07-17 12:04

It was well known that using one channel each on two Tundras gave significantly better results than a single Tundra, and this is what led to the Tundra Mono being developed.

Is it a similar situation with two Sagatun Stereos?

If so, if I had a multichannel setup, with three linked Sagatun Stereos handling 5.1 surround, would I get noticeably better performance on stereo sources by using 1 channel on each of two Sagatuns rather than two channels on a single Sagatun?