Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

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Post by tokenbrit »

lejonklou wrote:Yes, I believe that is what Doomhammer plans to do.
I'm happy to use Kinsky for track selection, and remote for vol & input selection since I unplugged my AK from the DS anyway due to RS232 'hiccups', but appreciate that may not be for everyone... It's sounds like an interesting project - presumably the R Pi will simulate Sagatun remote control commands from preamp instructions intercepted via RS232, forwarded from DS.
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Post by Ozzzy189 »

Is this likely to affect sound quality?
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Post by Ozzzy189 »

Nice, cheers, I reckon I'd pressed the volume up on the slave as its the underneath one, not the top one. Thanks guys.
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Post by Ozzzy189 »

lejonklou wrote:
Ozzzy189 wrote:Even if they're synced though, pressing vol +/- on one unit won't turn both up together, therefore putting them out of sync. I know you'll say, 'why on earth would you do this?' Well i had to today as i couldn't find my remote !! And unless you press both volumes together, then they will go off sync.
Of course they will stay in synch. Make sure one is set to Master, the other to Servant. Then connect the Toslink cable from 'Master' on Master, to 'Servant' on Servant. Servant will follow Master, both by remote control and front buttons.

If you did the above, you might have accidentally pressed the front buttons on Servant instead of Master. Master won't follow Servant, and therefore I recommend locking the front buttons of Servant.
Yes, that's what I did, I'd had the master underneath the servant and pressed the volume up on the top most sagatun, hence my query. Makes sense, I'd always used a remote so this makes total sense. Thanks once again fellas.
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Post by tokenbrit »

Ozzzy189 wrote:Is this likely to affect sound quality?
Those in the know say preamps* can sound better with RS232 enabled but not connected.
Quick search didn't turn up a definitve link, but here's the gist:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopi ... 9932f23b92

* that was Linn preamps - given reported evolution of the Lejonklou preamps, I'd say Fredrik took that forward in to development of the Sagatun
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Post by ThomasOK »

tokenbrit wrote:
Ozzzy189 wrote:Is this likely to affect sound quality?
Those in the know say preamps* can sound better with RS232 enabled but not connected.
Quick search didn't turn up a definitve link, but here's the gist:
http://www.lejonklou.com/forum/viewtopi ... 9932f23b92

* that was Linn preamps - given reported evolution of the Lejonklou preamps, I'd say Fredrik took that forward in to development of the Sagatun
Although the KK does sound more musical with the RS232 port active but not connected, this is caused by the electrical connection. This does not relate to the Sagatun, since it is only communicating through an IR flasher to IR receiver. So there is no electrical connection when hooked up and no musical degradation. This is true whether the Sagatun is receiving signals from another Sagatun or an IR flasher activated by an R Pi converting Kinsky commands. Therefore the only musical degradation would be if the R Pi pollutes the AC to a degree that it harms other components in the system. Something that will have to be determined by experimentation. However, since the feature being worked on is only useful for systems with streaming sources, and since those systems will also have other computing devices like NAS units, routers, switches, WAPs, etc., connected to the system it seems unlikely that an additional computing device couldn't be integrated without big musical problems. Time and trial will tell.
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Post by rowlandhills »

ThomasOK wrote:Therefore the only musical degradation would be if the R Pi pollutes the AC to a degree that it harms other components in the system.
Also very easy to work around, in that a commercially available USB battery pack will easily run a Raspberry Pi for 6+ hours (that example was running a web enabled camera, recording to SD card and visible over a web server, so a simple web interface and some monitoring of GPIO pins should consume less power). If there is any pollution of the mains, switch to battery drive for "critical" listening!
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Post by ThomasOK »

A little Sagatun Mono update. I recently received what may be the only pair of Sagatun Monos shipped out with the firmware "upgrade" to store settings. By the time these arrived Fredrik had already determined that he was not happy with the musical effect and was working to see what could be done. Then Monday I received another pair of Monos that included the hardware and program to revert the other Monos back to original settings. As this was Windoze software it, of course, took me an hour and a half to get it working properly with the connecting device. But once up and running the update process only took about 10 minutes for each unit.

First off, I listened to one of the Monos (in mono) compared to the demo Mono I have been using in my home system. There was no question that some of the musical magic was lost. It was certainly still better than the Sagatun Stereo but the musical beauty was noticeably reduced. Back to the demo Mono and the magic was back. Then I did the upgrade to revert the newer unit back to original settings, confirmed that it had worked and did the comparison again. The magic was back and the new unit was sounding much more like the demo unit.

Yesterday I installed the new Sagatun Monos in the customer's house. Once I had everything setup and we had played music for a couple of hours he was very happy with the additional music he was now hearing from cherished records and CDs. However, there are two caveats I thought I should mention here. One is warmup: when we first started listening the customer said it sounded bright and I agreed with him. Now his speakers, which are full range electrostatics, can exhibit a bit of that quality and are very revealing of it coming from other components. But this was certainly beyond what either of us expected. I talked to him about break in and suggested that I not do a complete reset of his speakers yet as things will change. I did make a little change to toe in which improved things a bit but he agreed to play the system for a few weeks and then I will go back and reposition the speakers. However, after about an hour of playing we both noticed that things were sounding better and after an hour and a half there really didn't seem to be much brightness to what we were playing. At this point we played a couple of the first tracks we had played, including the one that seemed the brightest (it had a pretty close-miked mandolin solo) and he said "That is 100% better" - the brightness was pretty much gone (other than what I would normally expect from the speaker). Ending with listening to another track we had just listened to a half hour before I found that it was definitely more musical and engaging than it had been and this was not one of the pieces which had come across as bright. So I highly recommend the Sagatuns be warmed up for at least an hour and a half to two hours before doing any serious comparisons or listening to them.

The other caveat just has to do with the optical link. I noticed after a while that I was losing sync between the two channels - I even had them with different inputs running at one point. I had plugged the optical cable into the Servant connection by feel and either I got it in upside down or just didn't get it in all the way. The result was that things initially seemed to be in sync but lost it after a little bit so after playing around with the buttons to make sure everything was lined up right I reconnected the optical connector to the Servant and tested it thoroughly and everything remained in sync from that point on. So just a warning that you do have to get this right as it is quite sensitive. At the store I tried an AudioQuest optical cable to see if I could sync up the Monos and a Stereo Sagatun to make comparisons easier but the stereo connected with the AQ cable kept losing sync.

So the first pair of customer Sagatun Monos in the US have been installed and after a little hiccup and some warmup the new owner is quite pleased. The demos continue to sound great with everything I play through them on my home system and the ATCs.

I thought I'd also mention that another customer borrowed the Sagatun Monos for about a week when I was in California to compare to his KK/D (original audio board). He said that he had to agree with the comments he had heard from me and read on this forum: he found that the one overriding trait he noticed with the Sagatun Monos was that they really engaged you more with the music that anything he had previously heard. Friends he had over noticed the same thing. Once you did a comparison or two you just wanted to keep listening to the Sagatuns as you found the music much more involving. He also mentioned that he felt that this effect was even more noticeable on his ADS than on his fully loaded LP12SE/Kandid?!

Once he mentioned that I realized that he was right. When we had the Sagatun Monos on display in the store I continually found the music coming out of our big demo room very seductive even though the source was an ADSM (preamp functions turned off). I would be sitting in the office next door working on the computer and I would be drawn into the music in the demo room and end up sitting there listening to several diverse tracks. (I generally have a 1000 track playlist of a wide variety of music on random play mode in there.) It also occurred to me that I was getting more enjoyment that I ever had in listening to digital files in the system at home with the Sagatun Monos and my ADS/0. Somehow the Sagatuns, and particularly the Monos make streamed music much more engaging than it has ever been - it somehow brings that quality to digital files. My theory is that the music from an LP12 is already so engaging that you practically can't kill it with a stick! The Sagatun Monos certainly let you hear more of that and records are indeed more fun than ever before. But with digital files, which normally seem to struggle to sound real, the Monos somehow let you hear so much that the beauty and magic is restored. My best guess is that the Sagatun Monos dig out enough more of the music that it lets you pass a threshold of believability and beauty that was previously somewhat buried. It is still not as musical as good analog, but it is very good indeed and sometimes even stunning. That's about as high a compliment as I can pay to a component.
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Post by rcmc77 »

Hello - I've just joined the Lejonklou forum but have been reading it for a while, primarily the Sagatun and Sagatun Mono thread. This post has to do with both Sagatun and Tundra, hopefully correct to post it here. I am the customer Thomas OK referred to in his most recent post. I've been a customer of his for something like 10 years. I have a fully loaded LP12 with Kandid, a Klimax Kontrol with original audio board and Dynamik, and Linn 350A speakers (Artikulat not Klimax, non Dynamik). A DS for the stuff where vinyl is not an option (small correction to Tom's post, it is a Majik DS not an Akurate). I had the Sagatun monos at home for about a week recently while Tom was on vacation. I also tried the Sagatun stereo a few weeks ago. As Tom said, I basically agree with him and most of the posts on here regarding comparisons between the mono and stereo Sagatuns and the KK.

As mentioned my KK has the original audio board, so not as good as an updated one, but despite that, to me my comparison with my KK and the Sagatun stereo pretty much had the same results I recall seeing here in earlier posts, basically that it was kind of neck and neck between the Sagatun stereo and the KK. My basic feeling after doing the comparison is if I did not own either a KK or a Sagatun stereo, and were deciding which to buy, the Sagatun stereo would be an easy choice based on costing less than half the price of the KK. However since I already owned the KK, I would probably end up having to spend a couple thousand or so to get the Sagatun stereo even after selling the KK, so it would probably not be worth it.

With Sagatun Monos a different story. Clearly better than my KK, no neck and neck. I kept noticing things about the music more so than about the sound. I was actually a little bummed out because I guess I had been hoping I could make a big step up from the KK for relatively small outlay by going to Sagatun stereo.

Also, as Tom said, I noticed that the Monos seemed to really do something for the DS. I hadn't really even planned to play the DS much with the Monos, but as it turned out, the night I that brought them home, my grown son and a friend were there, and asking to hear some of their music on my system. We have different musical tastes, I had nothing on vinyl they wanted to hear, so we had to import some digital files. The first hour or so I spent listening to the Sagatun Monos was with a DS as the source. My son is a bit of a skeptic when it comes to me and my audio system. He kind of gets it but also feels a bit like I "take it to the nth degree". This time he was pretty bowled over by what he was hearing, and he said he'd never heard my system sound like that. It was kind of fun to see, and I found myself actually enjoying music that I normally wouldn't care for a whole lot.

After they left, before switching over to vinyl, I played some music I did know and like through the DS, and I also would have to say that I've never heard it like that with the DS as the source. I also had a similar experience to what Tom mentioned where he was in an adjacent room and kept getting pulled in by what he was hearing while playing digital files.

With the LP12 as the source, I did feel that the effect of the Monos was not as dramatic, not really sure why (although it was still noticeably better than my KK).

A question for Frederik - I recently obtained a pair of Linn Isobarik DMS speakers to play around with and and am currently listening to them with a Tundra borrowed from a friend. The Tundra brings them alive pretty nicely compared to something like a Linn Klout. Both my friend who owns the Tundra and I were at the recent US launch of the Sagatun and Sagatun Monos on July 15 2014 at Overture Audio in Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA. I met Frederik, and it was a very enjoyable evening. I have been weighing some various options lately, and I wanted to ask Frederik if he has heard Linn Komri speakers driven by Tundra, and if so, any thoughts. Tom OK was checking some of the older forums for me last Friday to see if he could find the answer, there was one where it said something along the lines of the Tundra has been tested with wide range of Linn speakers including Komri. Tom said that Frederik does the testing, so that probably means he has heard Tundra with Komris. Frederik, wondering if you can confirm if you have heard that combination - thanks.

Also if anyone else on the forum has heard this combo and would care to comment it would be appreciated.
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Post by lejonklou »

Thank you ThomasOK and rcmc77 for sharing your impressions on Sagatun and Sagatun Mono! Interesting stuff on how you feel the DS player source benefits the most from Sagatun Mono.
And Thomas: I am happy you got the chance to confirm how the EEPROM memory firmware affected performance.
rcmc77 wrote:... I wanted to ask Frederik if he has heard Linn Komri speakers driven by Tundra, and if so, any thoughts.
Yes, I have tried Tunda with Komri twice. First with an early prototype of the stereo Tundra, housed in a case that was so small that after playing for half an hour it was almost too hot to touch. The member 'Komri' on this forum was there too (it was his Komri's) and he was very impressed. At the time he wrote about it on the Swedish Linn forum selleri.de.

Second time I tried Komri was with a pair of Tundra Mono's. It sounded really good. I think, though, that Komri is a speaker one must hear before purchase. It's quite special. Perhaps not the most refined or neutral loudspeaker by today's standards, but very impressively physical and full range.
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Post by Azazello »

Created a new thread regarding Komri with Tundra.

/Az
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Post by tokenbrit »

Mono a Mono - Sagatuns introduced to Tundras... First time I really get what people mean when they say it's like the musicians are in the room with you. Happy. Happy. :)

Now the wife wants Eddie Vedder 'in the room' :(
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Post by lejonklou »

tokenbrit wrote:Mono a Mono - Sagatuns introduced to Tundras... First time I really get what people mean when they say it's like the musicians are in the room with you. Happy. Happy. :)

Now the wife wants Eddie Vedder 'in the room' :(
Thank you tokenbrit!

So happy to read this on a Friday afternoon.

I do not accept responsibility, however, for any delayed after effects of the visitors in your room.
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Post by lejonklou »

Yesterday Sagatun Mono number 019 and 020 were shipped to Tonläget in Göteborg, where they are right now playing music.

They are having a musical evening tonight at 19.00, on the theme "Stereo or Mono?". If you are in the neighbourhood and would like to participate, give them a call!
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Post by Linncredible »

lejonklou wrote:They are having a musical evening tonight at 19.00, on the theme "Stereo or Mono?". If you are in the neighbourhood and would like to participate, give them a call!
What a great theme! Would love to have been able to participate! (But since it's 500 km's away...)
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Post by DelNaja »

I was at the event at Tonläget this evening. In fact, I was there before the event started (I couldn't stay because of my 4,5 year old daughter, who needed to be put to bed :-). Anders and I listened to the Sagatun stereo vs. the monos, with a KDS/1 (I think) as source. We played a few tunes, among others "Get Lucky" by Daft Punk. Thanks to Anders for a great demo and a nice time, like always!

I have a couple of things to say, having had some time to reflect. First, I was surprised at how good the Klångedang T1's sound. Surprisingly good bass performance for their size! I am by no means an expert in speakers, so maybe this is common knowledge, but it sure was surprising to me.

Second, it's almost hard to believe the difference between the stereo and the monos. It's so obvious when compared! And it's not like the stereo is a bad preamp, it's great. But the monos are just so much better. Sometimes it was like a whole different song! A song through the stereo sounded promising, but with the monos the tune had meaning. You could understand the song! I find this hard to explain, even understand. You have to experience this yourself to get it fully, I guess.

I was in the lookout for a new pre- and poweramp. One thing is for certain, I'm not looking for a preamp anymore :-)

P.S. I just want to emphasize that the Sagatun stereo is not a bad preamp. My thoughts here are just comparisons between it and the monos.
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Post by u252agz »

Sagatun Monos 17/18 arrived two days ago - in short simply amazing.

Everything is just so good - it is difficult to put adequately in words. Clearly more musical but every parameter that I can describe ( and many others I cannot) have improved; and not by a small margin.

The easiest way to describe this is in non musical terms: the music now just draws one in from an adjacent room and is immediately arresting, captivating and totally immersive.

It just compels you to sit down and listen, your attention being entirely focused on the music.

Individual tracks are virtually impossible to stop mid- track and it is difficult not to complete the current play list on kinsky.

And this is with only a few hours burn in and using the direct imput.

I simply dare not use the single source input - it might just be too much.

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Post by lejonklou »

DelNaja: Thank you!

Anwar: Thank you, too! When you write "direct input", I assume you mean the normal inputs (1-4). Right?
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Post by u252agz »

Yes Fredrik.

The KDS is attached to standard input 1, Turntable to input 3 and AV amp to input 4 with unity gain. Apologies for the lack of clarity.

I am leaving the single source input for now; the anticipation of an even greater improvement is almost as enjoyable as the music currently coming from the system.

Hopefully reading all the reviews must be some compensation for the hard work that has gone into the Sagatuns.
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Post by lejonklou »

u252agz wrote:Hopefully reading all the reviews must be some compensation for the hard work that has gone into the Sagatuns.
Oh yes!

The response I get from owners is extremely motivating.
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Post by Ron The Mon »

u252agz,
Wait a week or so with the Sagatuns warmed up. Then connect your turntable to the "single-source" input. You will then get a new pre-amp. It seems a little queer flipping a mechanical switch on the back of an expensive pre-amp but you will love it!

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Post by fatjulio »

u252agz wrote:The KDS is attached to standard input 1, Turntable to input 3 and AV amp to input 4 with unity gain.
Hi,
You have your AV amp using the unity gain option. Does it get most of the sonic benefits of the other inputs, even thought the volume is being done in the AV amp?
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Post by u252agz »

It is difficult to compare the unity gain with the other two inputs which are receiving the KDS1 and Rega planar 3/Gaio.

There is certainly a marked improvement when I play a music DVD through the ( basic samsung) blue ray and ( reasonable yamaha) av amp but the final sound is clearly not in the same league as when the same artist is played through the KDS. It does not have the same magic or addictive quality of the KDS.

I am using a live recording of emily sande at albert hall ( cd and dvd ) for this comparision.

For blue ray films - it is difficult to tell as to be honest, the AK/1 sounded exceptional feeding the left and right channels to the 242s; and the Sagatuns also sound exceptional.

As so much is done from the AV amp and centre channel / rears it is difficult to separate out the left and right channels.

The KDS1 has improved markedly ( I notice this more with Linn Radio streaming at 320 kbs , then cd quality and then 24 bit studio master) and the transformation in my trusty RP3 ( 1984 with original RB 300 arm ) is nothing short of unbelievable.
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Post by u252agz »

Monos have been with me one week now;

As predicted by forum members - they continue to improve significantly.

I have run out of superlatives after my initial post - but everything sounds just perfect - effortless and hugely enjoyable.

One thing that is quite different from the AK/1 is that I am able to enjoy listening at both low and high volume levels, and am not continuously adjusting the level. High volumes are quite addictive although not family friendly.

With the AK/1 anything below the correct volume ( usually close to 50)- the music trailed away, and with increasing levels it just stopped being as enjoyable, and became tiring.

This is quite unexpected and a major bonus.

At some stage, I will use the single source input with the KDS; for now just sitting back and enjoying the music.
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Post by lejonklou »

u252agz wrote:One thing that is quite different from the AK/1 is that I am able to enjoy listening at both low and high volume levels, and am not continuously adjusting the level. High volumes are quite addictive although not family friendly.

With the AK/1 anything below the correct volume ( usually close to 50)- the music trailed away, and with increasing levels it just stopped being as enjoyable, and became tiring.

This is quite unexpected and a major bonus.
Thanks again u252agz!

That Sagatun sounds great at many different volumes is not a coincidence. I did a number of calculations and arrangements where the intention was that the variations in power drawn by all circuits would cancel each other out. In theory that would be a good thing, as it could make power delivery very quiet and music very enjoyable, regardless of volume setting.

In the most advanced arrangement, I had a complete "dummy circuit", sitting right next to the active sound circuits, whose job was to cancel all variations in power, at all volume settings and with any signal content. One could say it was a bit like those turntables that have pulleys on many sides of the platter, in an attempt to cancel out any sideways pulling on the spindle and bearing.

As is often the case, practice turned out to be a tad more complicated than theory. The dummy circuit had some negative impact of its own (as do those extra pulleys, I assume), so the use of it did not result in optimal performance. What worked best was to balance the gain between several stages and arrange their powers and grounds in groups such that variations would cancel each other out as far as possible without additional circuitry added.

One thing that motivated me to spend time on these arrangements is how bad digital volumes are in this respect. They sound OK in a narrow band, but try lowering the volume and note whether the music is still involving.
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