Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

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Post by Charlie1 » 2015-01-29 13:45

Good to hear Paolo. I want to hear them even more now.

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by fieldmice » 2015-03-13 08:26

Hello,

Fully understand the best placement of Sagatun mono is pulling them onto separate shelf, but due to limited space, if no other ways out and only stack them together directly, so SQ degradation will be? i know it is not a simple mathematics.. but just want to have some hints to understand it clearly.

Thank you
fieldmice..
Source: Rega RP8 + Auralic Aries mini + Ikemi
Pre: Sagatun mono
Power: Tundra 1.2
Spk: Ninka

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by u252agz » 2015-03-13 10:07

For same cost you could upgrade Ikemi to a Linn KRDS/1 streamer and Sagatun stereo.

This would be a Klimax level source. Selling the LK140s would allow you to look for a demo Tundra stereo - this would be almost cost neutral. Some linn silvers and K200 speaker wires would be also useful.

You would have a really good system.

I started off with your current system 2 years ago and the difference will be incredible.

No problems going from active to passive - or in setting up the Nas drive for streaming.
KDS2/Sagatun Tundra Monos /242s /LP12 Kore-KRad-Ekos SE/Slip 7

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2015-03-13 10:18

He's also got almost exactly what I had, (lk 85 on treble), and swapping active for passive tundra was hugely better. Swapping out the kairn for a sagatun stereo would be absolutely a revelation. I might have some kit available depending on a few factors in the next month.
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by lejonklou » 2015-03-14 01:17

fieldmice wrote:Fully understand the best placement of Sagatun mono is pulling them onto separate shelf, but due to limited space, if no other ways out and only stack them together directly, so SQ degradation will be? i know it is not a simple mathematics.. but just want to have some hints to understand it clearly.
Hi fieldmice!

In case your question was more specifically about stacking Sagatun Mono's and not an upgrade question, I can try explaining what happens. First of all, they still sound great even if you stack them, it's rather a matter of getting value for your money when deciding to place them on separate shelves. Also, if you do stack them, you need to have something below the four grey rubber feet of the top Sagatun Mono, because these feet will quickly leave marks on the paint of the bottom Sagatun Mono. Cardboard, plastic, anything that prevents them from resting directly on the paint.

When you stack them and compare one channel with the other, you will find that the top one sounds better than the bottom one. The top one is happy with the support it gets from resting on a Sagatun case, but the bottom one will get an extra weight placed on top of it and this will make it sound a bit "compressed" in comparison.

Why is this? The main reason is that the lid of Sagatun and Sagatun Mono is damped with 2 cm2 of bitumen - an asphalt-like piece glued to the centre of the lid - and this amount is just perfect for the case to sound optimal. If you remove this piece of bitumen, the music sounds a little bit uncontrolled. If you double the amount, it sounds a bit too damped. 2 cm2 is just right. Now, placing a 3.6 kg unit on top of the lid, resting on four small points (the rubber feet), ruins this tuning and the case becomes too damped. As a result, you will hear a trace of that in the music as well.

If there is only one shelf available and still more than enough room for a pair of stacked Sagatun Mono's, I think that a good solution could be to make some kind of simple upside-down U-shaped shelf that is placed around the bottom Sagatun. And then the top Sagatun on that upside-down U-shaped shelf. Just to prevent the top one from standing on the bottom one. Maybe two pieces of brick, or a pile of books, one on each side of the bottom Sagatun, and a wooden shelf on top of it?

Just an idea. If this is not an option, you can also stack them. Just make sure there's something between top feet and bottom lid.

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by fieldmice » 2015-03-14 05:13

Hello Fredrik and all,

Thank you so much for your advise. Sorry for misleading about the upgrade path suggestion due to my outdated signature... ^^

I actually completed my upgrade to have Rega turntables, RKDS/0 and Ikemi (I still love this CD player very much). And the power amp already upgraded to Tundra1.2 last year from Fredrik. Its really impressive me a lot from LK140x3 active to only one box Tundra! So after a year, I would like to thinking about the upgrade to my pre amp, as I really understand my Karin is my weakest link in my system... So, of cos thinking of Sagatun be my first priority...

Thank you so much Fredrik, you answer is very detail and I really don't know you have some many detail design consideration onto the Sagatun top lid!!!!

I will deeply consider my shelf arrangement and should come back to you again.

Thank you and have a nice day
Fieldmice..
Source: Rega RP8 + Auralic Aries mini + Ikemi
Pre: Sagatun mono
Power: Tundra 1.2
Spk: Ninka

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2015-03-14 12:02

Thanks for the explanation fredrik. I've seen this 'deadening' bitumen material on russ Andrews website, I presume it's the same kind of materials? Have you managed to find a material for the feet that you're happy with sound wise that doesn't leave marks?
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by lejonklou » 2015-03-14 15:19

Haven't seen that particular one, Ozzzy, but it's probably the same stuff.

Guess what about those feet: Nothing sounds better than one small washer, one big washer and that grey rubber foot. Tried all sorts of combinations of different woods, plastics, metals, rubbers, felts etc and always on several different supports - from Harmonihyllan Mimer in machined aluminium to Oden shelves in spruce and a simple table of veneered MDF. The feet has to work on everything and this foot does.

The fact that it leaves marks on powdercoat paint is annoying, so I found and ordered a black version of the same foot. Same manufacturer, same size, feels the same but the rubber composition is different. Tested its appetite for paint and it has none. Did it sound the same? No! Clearly worse. Couldn't use them.

I'm sticking with what sounds best and so far it's this grey one.

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2015-03-14 23:09

And that's why you make awesome kit Fredrik, the details and amount of testing you achieve is commendable to say the least.
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by lejonklou » 2015-03-19 23:46

Sagatun 1.1 and Sagatun Mono 1.1 are now released!

This upgrade is taken from Tundra Mono 2. A lot of different chassis ground arrangements were tested, as it turned out to be an important detail in the amp. Direct connections, long and short cables of various brands, crimping or soldering, different screws, nuts, tags and locking washers. And when the best combination was finally found - the torque that holds it.

Paolo Nobile of Key Systems in Rome was of essential help with that last detail - the torque. I had been trying pretty high torques, but found that they sounded weird and tense. Paolo insisted I try again, that there was a sharp peak of performance at a very high torque, and that it needed to settle for a couple of days before it started sounding good. He was right and I would not have found it without him.

First I checked that this ground connection in Tundra Mono 2 worked on Sagatun as well. It did - and made an even bigger difference than it did to the power amp. Then, three other changes to the circuits of Sagatun were tried. None of them were a musical improvement. So the upgrade became a 1.1 and is offered at a low cost:

SEK 1000, €110, £84 or US$100 plus shipping per unit. That's including VAT.

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by paolo » 2015-03-21 18:23

lejonklou wrote:Sagatun 1.1 and Sagatun Mono 1.1 are now released!

Paolo Nobile of Key Systems in Rome was of essential help with that last detail - the torque. I had been trying pretty high torques, but found that they sounded weird and tense. Paolo insisted I try again, that there was a sharp peak of performance at a very high torque, and that it needed to settle for a couple of days before it started sounding good. He was right and I would not have found it without him.
Thank you for mentioning this Fredrik, I am extremely glad to have been of help improving your already fantastic products. It has been always in our spirit to share the results of our experiments and this was the reason we did know each other initially many years ago: though the time left is much less now (at least for me) I feel the pure enthusiasm, the attention to details and the fun we get is remained nearly the same.

About the specific matter of ground screw torque, my findings have been at least partially suggested by observing that parameter on Klimax Kontrols and (later) Klimax DSs in the first periods of their introduction in the market. I noticed that the value used was generally much higher than what was used nearly everywhere else in Linn electronics, and that it had a truly fundamental impact on the musical performance of those products. When we started using the Sturtevant Richmont Torque scewdrivers (thanks Thomas!) I fine tuned that value ending up considerably higher than 3 Nm infact, a couple of notches below 3.4Nm. Going to this value from lower ones the sound was initially a bit hard and compressed but the music did get fundamentally better, with everything but particularly the rhythmic structure more exact, articulate, solid and sure footed, clearly easier to follow. After some days of settling the sound did get more relaxed and everything was completely fixed.
Given the fact that Fredrik’s products chassis, ground wires, ground tags, ground srews are so much different than those used in Klimaxes, it is both surprising and interesting the fact that we have finally found that also for his electronics a virtually identical torque value works so wonderfully. Nice.

Go on with your fantastic work Fredrik!
Paolo

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by lejonklou » 2015-03-26 09:49

Thank you Paolo!

Indeed it's rather strange that despite all the parts involved being different, this particular fastener (chassis ground) requires an almost identical torque to sound optimal.

A word of caution to DIYers: This high torque needs precision trimming by ear and with the right tool, because the peak in performance is very sharp. If you go a tiny fraction too high, the music gets strangled and looses its flow. 2 Nm is a "safer" torque, where you can be a tad off and it still sounds just fine.
paolo wrote:the music did get fundamentally better, with everything but particularly the rhythmic structure more exact, articulate, solid and sure footed, clearly easier to follow. After some days of settling the sound did get more relaxed and everything was completely fixed.
That's a great description of the effect it has. Now, the Sagatun 1.1 upgrade consists also of new parts - which in my opinion makes an even bigger difference than the high torque. I know you'll soon have this upgrade installed in your Sagatun Mono's, so I wonder if you can please update us on what you think of them in their 1.1 version. I think you will be very pleased!

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by ThomasOK » 2015-04-03 19:40

I have now done the 1.1 upgrade to a couple pair of Sagatun Monos and I am quite impressed. While it is nowhere near the improvement in the Tundra Mono 2 upgrade, as certainly is to be expected, it still is very worthwhile musically. Definitely better flow and timing to the music, improved control of bass notes and more articulation throughout the range. It makes an already world-class preamp even more musical.

I have also listened to a burned in Sagatun 1.1 and compared it again to a KK/2 as I mentioned in the Tundra Mono 2 thread. Now I find the Sagatun musically preferable to the KK/2 on most music but have found a piece or two where the KK/2 was better. During the musical evening we had here with Fredrik this seemed to be the general consensus. Everybody felt the two were very close in overall musicality but they did sound different. About half really couldn't make up their minds which they liked better and the other favored the Sagatun while admitting it was very close. I have to say that the 1.1 upgrade didn't really change this. I did the comparison with three of the people who were there for the musical evening and we all felt the two were still very close. The 1.1 upgrade definitely improves the Sagatun but I would say it does so by making its strengths even a bit stronger, but doesn't change those things that would need to improve to make it a clear KK/2 beater as its bigger brothers are. Personally I would choose the Sagatun 1.1 even if it were the same money as I like the direct way it handles music better - I just find it more captivating on most music. However, as I find the Sagatun Mono does everything better than the KK/2, an opinion that was unanimous at the musical evening, and is simply more musically engaging than any preamp I have ever heard, I don't have to make that choice. The 1.1 upgrade to the Mono just polishes the performance a bit further.

As I mentioned to Fredrik, I don't feel it is too bad a place to be when your second best preamp is roughly equivalent to Linn's best (and previously the best I had heard from any company) - especially when it runs $8500 less in the US. The 1.1 upgrade improves both the Sagatun and Sagatun Mono quite noticeably and is certainly worth doing at only $100 per unit. Congrats to Fredrik (and Paolo) on this further improvement.
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by Rita S » 2015-12-29 13:22

I've just started using this and I can say thay I'm in love with Sagatun mono and It's really stunning.
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by ThomasOK » 2015-12-29 20:02

Welcome to the forum. Glad to hear you are enjoying the Sagatun Monos, they really are quite something special.
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by ChrBea » 2019-01-05 19:19

Until now I always had just one source, so it was obvious how to connect this to the Sagatun Mono, but as I have ordered very recently an LP12, I am interested/curious in how you have connected your sources to the Sagatuns.
Most musical source goes to the "direct inputs", second most musical to some of the "normal inputs", is there a difference between the different "normal inputs" or are they all equal in tunefullness?
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by lejonklou » 2019-01-06 01:09

Hi ChrBea!

Inputs 1-4 sound the same, but there is a bit of burn in phenomenon that makes the input you've used for a while sound a bit better than the ones that haven't been used.

Then there are some (myself included) that put their main source (mine is the LP12) on the single source input and the other sources (I have TV and streamer) on the normal inputs. So when I have a night of listening to vinyl, I flip the Single Source switch down, to make it sound even better. Otherwise I have it flipped up, so that the family can play the streamer and watch the TV.

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-01-06 19:15

That’s what I do as well. LP12 on direct and HAKAI and Kremlin on inputs 1 & 2.
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by macrotech2 » 2019-01-06 19:39

Same here. DS on direct and Oppo 205 in unity gain input 4. But make sure to switch to a different input before listening to the DS, otherwise you get a very loud surprise!
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by ThomasOK » 2019-01-07 22:16

macrotech2 wrote:
2019-01-06 19:39
Same here. DS on direct and Oppo 205 in unity gain input 4. But make sure to switch to a different input before listening to the DS, otherwise you get a very loud surprise!
Just to be clear, that is only a real concern when you are using the unity gain option on input 4 as it sets the volume to 80-quite loud.
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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by lejonklou » 2019-06-18 21:45

In keeping with the company ethos Honest HiFi, I thought I'd mention that I recently did a test with a new way of switching inputs 1-4 on and off.

My hope was that it could improve the musical performance, perhaps especially on the Single Source Input, when inputs 1-4 are all switched off.

Unfortunately the new idea did not hold up in practice. It sounded musically worse instead of better.

Why do I mention this? Just to let you know that I'm always looking for ways to improve my units - old and new models alike. And perhaps also that it's rarely as straightforward a process as some people think: Not simply a matter of deciding what to design and then work until it's done. No, it's rather a constant testing of ideas to find out whether they work in practice. I think on average about one idea out of ten result in something really useful; a circuit (or part of one) that's safe, reliable, really musical, possible to manufacture and works with other parts.

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Re: Sagatun and Sagatun Mono

Post by mrco99 » 2019-06-19 15:23

Thanks Fredrik for making notice of this.
We are nowadays so often used to (or spoiled by) improvements and updates of hifi equipment - to a degree where one may either question these improvements themselves or the actual original product - that it is a comfort to know that we still enjoy the musically best Sagatuns you have been able to build thus far.

Great to read that you don't stop testing your new ideas against your current design, only executing any changes when these would result in a more emotionally involving performance.
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