Forum issues are discussed here

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David Neel
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by David Neel »

I value this forum.

From being, some years ago, a contributor to several forums, I have reduced my activity to this one exclusively. Recently I have contributed less. One reason is changes in the nature of some posts, or should that be some participants?

The Linn forum was closed, but not before a phase when very light moderation allowed increasing amounts of personal vitriol to go unchallenged. One of the major culprits (there, then) has become active on this forum.

I don't agree with all posts on here, but I acknowledge differing opinions. I have no time for people who tell you what is best if they fail to display a spirit of enquiry, combined with humility. I believe that the less a person knows, the more certainly they know it.

I'd hate to see the more open and engaged members of this forum driven away, or into silence.

Thank you Spannko, for opening a debate.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by lejonklou »

Thank you Spannko for bringing this up.

And thank you ThomasOK, markiteight, beck, Donuk, V.A.MKD and David Neel for sharing your thoughts on the matter.

I have run internet forums for more than two decades. The HiFi forums (linn@topica.com and Lejonklou Forums) have always had the Tune Method stated as the method of evaluation. In the current rules, it says "If you do not agree with the validity of the Tune Method OR regard a different method of evaluation as more important or valid, this forum is not for you."

Let me start by saying that this will never change on any HiFi forum that I run. I'm simply not interested in anything else.

As Spannko pointed out, we have indeed had a number of new members trying to push the boundaries, particularly during 2020. The problem is however not simple, as there are multiple ways to act disruptively. Let me give some examples and what I believe can be done about them. And please do share your thoughts!

1. Openly disputing Tune Method as the method of evaluation.
Solution: This one is simple. Post should be removed and if repeated, member should be expelled.

2. Agreeing with the use of the Tune Method, but trying openly to redefine it.
Solution: This one is also simple. Post should be removed and if repeated, member should be expelled. We have never allowed any such discussions.

3. Agreeing with the use of the Tune Method, but constantly ignoring it, preaching other methods and/or using language that makes it obvious the focus is somewhere else entirely.
Solution: This is a little trickier. Member should be reminded of the rules. Often that will yield an acknowledgment of the rules, while in practice the member continues to ignore them. When should posts be removed? Not easy.

4. Agreeing with the use of the Tune Method, but wanting to discuss how, when and why it's performed.
This is not a problem! Such discussions can be enlightening for everyone. The key here is the attitude of wanting to learn.

OK, so I leave the Tune Method for now. Another problem is attitude. We already have rules against rude language (perhaps 'and behavior' should be added? Or 'rude language and offensive behavior'?), off-topic chatting (a plague on many other forums), unnecessary negativity and unscientific comments. But I believe that the following sentence might need some polishing and be pushed much harder:

"The spirit of this forum is one of curiosity, respect and friendly, productive participation."

Curiosity is a state of mind that seems absent in all the cases where we've had controversy, don't you think? When you first enter a forum that's been running for almost 14 years with 50 thousand posts, is your attitude one of wanting learn or wanting to teach? I thought 'curiosity' said it all, but apparently it's insufficient.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by lejonklou »

Spannko wrote: 2020-11-29 16:10 My preferred approach would be to immediately remove any post which breaks the rules (without discussion) and send the poster a standardised PM describing why their post has been removed, together with a copy of the rules.
I agree with this proposal.

The question is when a post actually breaks a rule and when it's on the edge of breaking one. That decision is the job of a moderator. Most of the time no action is needed, but a moderator needs to follow the forum regularly and act quickly when something happens.

Anyone interested in this job? Please send me a pm!
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Defender »

I agree with all said above - I also have the feeling that some new members are off the path.

One issue is that if you start as a new member with this forum you might not familiar with tune dem. That happened to me in the beginning and than you end up stating things which are off the path. I was happy to have people correct me and I was willing to accept that a lot of people here have more experience than me with tune dem and I wanted to learn.

I am on the path to improve my joy with music over more than 35 years so I could say I have a lot of experience - however its not the experience I needed as I was wandering around with up and downs and over time not really achieving what I wanted.

Different anology: we all drive a car since long time maybe also around 30 years (depending on our age) so some would say they are experienced drivers. However no one would question a Formula 1 driver or a Rallye driver is much more experienced. But here it happens.

Thats why we all try to help those new guys in the beginning and try to make them aware. This eats up time and it feels useless to do so if there is no willing to understand from the other side. The opposite is true the one who get clear hints with arguments are feeling offended. Current examples are the new speaker placement discussion and the upgrade path discussion.

Not sure what to do - I would like to help those guys still as I got help when I joined this forum and got a lot out of it from all of you.
I think one reminder is o.k. but if it doesnt help delete the post.

By the way I hope beck stays with us as there was some comments from him about moving on which I am not sure about what he meant with that.
Beck - you helped me a lot as well as many others here! Thank you for that.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by OscarH »

Defender wrote: 2020-11-30 10:10
By the way I hope beck stays with us as there was some comments from him about moving on which I am not sure about what he meant with that.
Beck - you helped me a lot!
I believe it was donuk hinting at moving on some time back but there seems to be consensus about wanting him to stay also.

I can recognize much of what you state above Defender. I personally am very grateful for the enthusiasm and willingness to help that is shown by many of the experienced forum members. I can also attest to there being a fairly high tolerance towards people who, typically due to lack of practice, aren't too good at using the Tune Method. Everybody has to start somewhere and in my experienced this is acknowledged and allowed on the forum.

Showing interest and willingness to learn I believe are the key traits to 'getting away' with such as a newcomer. In fact, sticking ti the stated spirit of the forum (curiosity, respect and friendly, productive participation) strikes me as the central aspect here.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by beck »

I am thrilled I could help you Defender!

If we can keep the spirit of an openminded approach with focus on music within the forum rules it will be hard for me to leave. :-)

It is a kind of love and hate situation for me to be in this state of “addiction” following and writing here but at least it is my number one interest I have engaged in and I really feel connected to many of the persons in here with the same interest (you included). :-)
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by V.A.MKD »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-11-30 00:28 Thank you Spannko for bringing this up.

And thank you ThomasOK, markiteight, beck, Donuk, V.A.MKD and David Neel for sharing your thoughts on the matter.
...
I agree with all said, but if possible to be added suggestion from Defender ... one reminder ...
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by V.A.MKD »

Defender wrote: 2020-11-30 10:10 I agree with all said above - I also have the feeling that some new members are off the path.

One issue is that...
...
+1
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by V.A.MKD »

OscarH wrote: 2020-11-30 10:28 I believe it was donuk hinting at moving on some time back but there seems to be consensus about wanting him to stay also.

I can recognize much of what you state above Defender. I personally am very grateful for the enthusiasm and willingness to help that is shown by many of the experienced forum members.
...
OscarH I agree with you on all ... especially on the part "help" and "lack of practice" ...
Music First ...
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by V.A.MKD »

beck wrote: 2020-11-30 10:33 I am thrilled I could help you Defender!

If we can keep the spirit of an openminded approach with focus on music within the forum rules it will be hard for me to leave. :-)
...
Good to hear this Beck ... :-)
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Spannko »

It’s great to see how much the forum is appreciated by so many people, and it appears that this subject has struck a chord with quite a few members. I’ve even noticed that some people are now taking moderating into their own hands! So, there’s clearly a desire to see things change.

If I may, I’d like to reinforce the idea of rogue posts being removed immediately. Giving the poster a warning and not removing the post leaves the door open for an unnecessary discussion. Don’t forget, trolls are like petulant teenagers. It’ll be “Yeah but, no but, this is so unfair, I’m leaving” etc 🤣

Removing rogue posts keeps the thread clean and concise, avoids even mild squabbling and maintains a unified message for new members and unregistered visitors (of which there are literally thousands - look at the number of views the “playground” gets!). If the poster is genuinely interested in contributing or learning, they can invest a bit of time and resubmit an amended post.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Charlie1 »

David Neel wrote: 2020-11-29 22:01 I value this forum.

From being, some years ago, a contributor to several forums, I have reduced my activity to this one exclusively. Recently I have contributed less. One reason is changes in the nature of some posts, or should that be some participants?
...
I've only just noticed these recent posts so another thank you to Spannko.

I agree with David that it's important to remain civil (and kind) when you disagree with someone and we have had some pretty heavy handed statements thrown in peoples faces this year. I just bite my tongue but it's not been in the spirit of the Lejonklou forum (curiosity, learning, etc.)

On the other point of recent members, I think Fredrik has consistently handled this very well throughout the years. Not sure why it's been trickier of late.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by lejonklou »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-12-03 18:49 On the other point of recent members, I think Fredrik has consistently handled this very well throughout the years. Not sure why it's been trickier of late.
Thank you Charlie.

Three reasons: 1. Corona has brought increased traffic and activity on a lot of forums. 2. I have been the sole moderator. 3. Corona has caused a boom in my sales, so the moderation has typically been done at 2:45 am before falling into bed, and therefore not always optimised in its level of refinement.

But things are about to improve in that department, as we have a new moderator: markiteight.

You might have already noticed his name in green and the title 'moderator' below. We both share the conviction that the Tune Method and courteous manners are essential to this forum. I think it's going to work splendidly.

Welcome as our new moderator, markiteight!
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by ThomasOK »

Welcome, indeed! Fredrik can certainly use the decreased workload and it is obvious the forum could use the help of an additional moderator. Thanks for stepping up to the plate.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by markiteight »

ThomasOK wrote: 2020-12-05 00:11 Welcome, indeed! Fredrik can certainly use the decreased workload and it is obvious the forum could use the help of an additional moderator. Thanks for stepping up to the plate.
Thanks, Thomas. And you're welcome!

I'm excited to be able to give back more to the group that has given me so much.

This is my first time operating in this sort of capacity so if anyone has any comments, issues, suggestions, or just wants to say, "hi", you are welcome to send me a private message.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Charlie1 »

Excellent news markiteight!
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by matthias »

Charlie1 wrote: 2020-12-05 01:31 Excellent news markiteight!
+1

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by beck »

matthias wrote: 2020-12-05 10:35
Charlie1 wrote: Excellent news markiteight!
+1

Matt
+2
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Defender »

lejonklou wrote: 2020-12-04 23:58
Charlie1 wrote: 2020-12-03 18:49 On the other point of recent members, I think Fredrik has consistently handled this very well throughout the years. Not sure why it's been trickier of late.
Thank you Charlie.

Three reasons: 1. Corona has brought increased traffic and activity on a lot of forums. 2. I have been the sole moderator. 3. Corona has caused a boom in my sales, so the moderation has typically been done at 2:45 am before falling into bed, and therefore not always optimised in its level of refinement.

But things are about to improve in that department, as we have a new moderator: markiteight.

You might have already noticed his name in green and the title 'moderator' below. We both share the conviction that the Tune Method and courteous manners are essential to this forum. I think it's going to work splendidly.

Welcome as our new moderator, markiteight!
both news are excellent - to have markiteight as a moderator and that corona caused a boom in your sales. I was worried a little bit about that - thats really good news.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by fredrik »

I get a invalid certificate and chrome does not allow me to connect using https citing the certificate is "invalid".
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by lejonklou »

fredrik wrote: 2021-10-02 18:45 I get a invalid certificate and chrome does not allow me to connect using https citing the certificate is "invalid".
Thank you Fredrik!

I'm investigating this.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by springwood64 »

lejonklou wrote: 2021-10-03 15:52
I'm investigating this.
Chrome on my android reports that the certificate is valid until 1 November 2021
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by lejonklou »

fredrik wrote: 2021-10-02 18:45 I get a invalid certificate and chrome does not allow me to connect using https citing the certificate is "invalid".
Is the problem now gone or still there?
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by fredrik »

It's ok now, maybe some temporary "interference"
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Tony Tune-age »

I was wondering if there could be a category called Various Recorded Music, that would contain threads like the Latest recordings to enter into your collection, and the Musician, Singer, Songwriter and novelist, and the Playlist, as well as the other related music threads?

It would be easier to find these threads if they were in their own category, and it might stimulate addition music topics. Just a thought...

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