Forum issues are discussed here

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-04-02 16:11

Welcome Xavier!

On the main forum page, there is by each subforum a link to the group 'staff'. There you can reach administrator and moderators.

Your pm function is now enabled. Apologies for the inconvenience! The reason it's disabled to begin with is because we had to stop spammers.

badwisdom · Post by **badwisdom** » 2012-04-03 08:54

Understood, thank you very much :)

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-04-20 15:35

We are currently experiencing a problem when posting messages on the forum. When pressing "Submit", you can occasionally get the following error message:

Failed sending email :: PHP ::

DEBUG MODE

Line : 234
File : emailer.php

When this happens, your message has been posted. So there is no need to try posting again, as it will only result in multiple identical posts.

We are working on resolving this issue.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-04-22 23:03

It seems the issue is now resolved.

Sammy · Post by **Sammy** » 2012-04-24 22:02

Hi I am unable to send PMs. I have received some PMs but I cannot reply. Could you be so kind and enable this for me please?
Many thanks
Sammy

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-04-24 22:48

PM function enabled, Sammy.

Welcome to the forum!

CJ1045 · Post by **CJ1045** » 2012-11-09 14:37

The notification e-mails that you have a PM seem to be taking hours to get through at the moment - is there an issue?

Regards
CJ

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-11-09 15:09

Sorry about that, CJ. The only issue is that the server that the forum is on has had some issues this week. I hope it gets sorted soon.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-12-16 12:20

I'm sorry to say that we've had another spam-by-pm.

These are the reason why new members are not allowed to send or reply to personal messages. It appears this time I was tricked. Apologies!

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2012-12-16 20:52

Would that explain the new message that did not appear?

Thanks for catching it and saving me.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2012-12-16 23:17

Thanks to Rowlandhills, who notified me, I deleted the spammer's account. When the account is deleted, so are all the pm's in the outbox. It appears the pm's don't reach their destination after this.

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2013-01-05 11:54

The administrative tool don't let me move a post to an existing thread, so that's why I have to include donuks post in a quote, rather than just move it here.

donuk wrote:
Azazello wrote:Two posts deleted (sorry donuk). The method of evaluation that forms the basis of the discussion on this forum is tune dem. We are not interested in discussions or debates about what is "logically" possible according to current beliefs of our participants.
Sorry to have quite unwittingly offended forum rules.
I am sure there are other places on the web for people like me.
For me contributing to a forum is an act of pleasure; part of my hifi hobby. For me it is an enjoyment.

I will not take the risk of my well-intentioned harmless comments being deleted again. My remarks were made simply to try to open up debate again, as I feel the previous contributor had sought to close it down. And for a hobby-forum I would support his being able to express his views, even if I do not agree with them. They were not offensive.

I do not really understand your rebuke that my comments were outside of evaluation by tune dem. Presumably if I had said that "tune dem suggests that mains cables do make hifi sound different" it would have been OK.

I am sure you have your reasons Azazello. While I feel that, for example, the Naim forum is not moderated enough, I think that too much moderation on hobby forums will make newbies reluctant to contribute. While you might get some ideas you do not agree with you might limit some original thought by would-be posters. The forum has been quite quiet lately hasn't it? Of course it is all none of my business.

To say "We are not interested in discussions or debates about what is "logically" possible according to current beliefs of our participants" is rather limiting for a hobby forum. The sort of things you can say as the professor to students at a university, but not to hobbyists who you wish to attract to the worlds of Linn and Lejonklou.

Thanks to all for your information and entertainment in the past.
A happy 2013.

Don of sunny downtown York

The reason I deleted your post was none other then that it was a comment on a previous post that I deleted. I just want to keep the threads as clean and comprehensible as possible. I have deleted several of Fredriks posts for the same reason, so my apologies for not being clearer about this, and please don't feel personally offended.

The general policy regarding posts that question the possibility of this or that making a difference is firmly established here. It comes from years of experience reading endless and boring "debates" on other more liberal forums and I would like to argue that it's the main reason for the high quality of Lejonklou:s forum compared to all other HiFi forums I know of.

Regarding newbies: This constant conflict on other forums leads to a situation where It's often very difficult to find consistent information, and if you fail to figure out witch of the posters that actually know what they are talking about you will be left with the rather worthless advice "try for yourself".

These are the main reasons that you'll never will find a discussion about "whether mains cables make a difference or not" here.

kind regards

/Az

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2013-01-05 12:35

Good post Azazello. I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss the reasons behind differences in e.g cables though is it? I'd really like to get an understanding of just why seemingly illogical differences can actually be perceived by the ear.

Post by **lejonklou** » 2013-01-05 13:02

I liked Azazello's post, too. I am very thankful that he's moderating here and fully agree with his standpoint.

Rufus: It's certainly ok to ask "How come this thing has an impact on sound quality?". Or saying "In my system, there is no impact on sound quality with that thing".

What is not ok - and we decided this before the forum was started - is saying things like "It's impossible that thing can have an impact on sound quality". Why is that not ok? Because in the world of HiFi, there are lots of details that can matter and some of them we can't yet explain the reason behind. Everyone who uses the Tune Method has experienced how tiny and seemingly irrelevant matters can sometimes be important. This is a forum where you can post your findings without being attacked by the "that's impossible"-brigade.

Spannko · Post by **Spannko** » 2013-01-05 14:30

Contrary to some people's opinion, I would argue for even tighter moderation on this forum! I've noticed a trend whereby too many posters who don't appear to be genuine tune meister's are slipping in the phrase "tune-dem" to gain acceptance. I appreciate it's hard to be certain, but as the saying goes "It takes a tune-demmer to know a tune-demmer"!

I totally agree that what makes this forum the most helpful on the web is consistent musically related evaluation criteria (tune-dem) and a lack of boring circular arguments which are ultimately confusing for people who are genuinely trying to build a useable knowledge base.

Charlie1 · Post by **Charlie1** » 2013-01-05 15:37

Yes, I appreciate the forum's approach too, mainly through witnessing the Linn forum.

It would be a shame to lose donuk though - I hope he has a change of mind.

ThomasOK · Post by **ThomasOK** » 2013-01-05 18:26

I also hope donuk will reconsider and see that the removal wasn't meant as a slight against him but an attempt to keep the thread where it should be. I appreciate the moderation here as almost every other Hi-Fi forum ends up getting these long winded debates as to whether it is possible that there are sonic differences between different power cables, interconnect cables, cable directions, network hard drives, etc., etc. Such discussions are rather useless as neither side will ever be able to prove their point adequately to the other side so the "discussions" just go on and on and on... I see them as just a modern day version of the "the turntable just goes round and round" argument from the early 70s.

The FACT is that our ear/brain mechanism is a much more sensitive and discerning instrument than any test gear that has been devised and likely always will be. We have the ability to audibly (and visually as well) sort through multiple sounds to focus on what matters to us and to recognize patterns that can be too subtle for machines. It is therefore not surprising that we can hear things that are unexplainable, not to mention that science changes its theories and understandings on a regular basis.

It is certainly fine to question why a particular thing might cause a musically significant difference as this could lead to a better understanding of how to improve the performance of our systems. This type of discussion happens here quite regularly. It is the automatic denial of the possibility of this or that making an audible difference that really makes for a useless argument and I agree with the removal of these time wasting posts.

SaltyDog · Post by **SaltyDog** » 2013-01-06 05:57

This post has nothing to do with Tune Dem, and I'm not totally sure I am one that gets it, but I do try. I know what music and acoustic instruments sound like. Sorry if it goes against the grain to some, but who is anyone to judge what another perceives? Open discussion leading to understanding and learning is my objective. If being involved with this forum with my objective is not tolerable to some here that is okay with me. I don't need anyone's approval to enjoy my music. I think judging others is beyond my pay grade as they say in the US military. I think if we are going to stick to strict guidelines, then judging each other falls outside the guidelines as I have read them.

I can see where Donuk would have felt slighted. I really don't see how he would have felt anything else. That is until I just read Azazello's explanation.

Good intentions - bad affect.

If it were me, none of the requests for donuk's continuing presence would be reaching me. I think that I would have to be contacted by email with an apology (I realize one was made at the time of deletion, but without the explanation it would not have been sufficient to me) and the explanation.

Good effort, continued learning, contributing, and being tolerant of opinions being stated as opinions have value to me. Blanket dismissals or statements without experience are rather useless.

Count me as one who would like to see donuk's continued participation.

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2013-01-06 10:39

When I deleted the messages I found it completely obvious that the reason for removing donuk's post was purely administrative, that's why I only wrote "(sorry donuk)" in my message. Next time I moderate in a similar situation I will try to be clearer.

And FYI, I also did send donuk a PM before moving his post here.

@Spannko: I do see what you mean, but I think the world would have to be ten times bigger for that forum to survive :)

donuk · Post by **donuk** » 2013-01-06 11:49

Well, I have not, as they say in England, "taken home my bat and ball."

Thanks to you who have requested I remain with the forum, and had sympathy with my position. I do not want to make this a thread about me - so please don't mention me any more in connection with this incident.

I do really like this forum - its "grown-up" approach to the subject, and the tight moderation. I so hate personal abuse and arrogance which appears elsewhere on the net.

As well as my being oversensitive (I have heard that before!), a PM failed to reach me from Az's ipad when he made the deletions.

We have since exchanged very pleasant PMs. I now have a full understanding of what happened, and concur with Az's actions. Perhaps it is useful to have these sort of incidents from time to time to remind contributors of the difficulty of the moderator's job, and the moderator of contributors' sensitivities.

And this is how I closed the post that was deleted:

Happy New Year from drab downtown York
Where all the music is beautiful and all the hifi is Linn.
(with apologies to Garrison Keillor)

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2013-01-06 12:15

donuk wrote:Perhaps it is useful to have these sort of incidents from time to time to remind contributors of the difficulty of the moderator's job, and the moderator of contributors' sensitivities.

Amen. Let's get back to business :)

CJ1045 · Post by **CJ1045** » 2014-06-11 10:21

I think that this is the right place to discuss this. I think it was very heavy handed to delete my, Frederick and ThomasOK posts about speaker cable from the thread about equipment postioning. Surely it is better to leave non-offensive discussions in place rather than delete them. It is, after all, a discussion forum.

Regards
CJ

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-06-11 14:09

Moderation on this forum is hard but fair. I like that! You can read Azazello's post above (the latest one in red) to understand the reason behind his policy.

The only thing I'd like to add is that most moderation originates from a member not understanding that the common reference on this forum is the Tune Method. Those who seek discussions on subjective taste find that in here, firm judgements of better/worse is regarded as objective truth. I can understand that comes as a shock. To those in that situation, our message is: Visit a retailer or friend who knows the method, ask them to show you and participate with an active and curious mindset. It's easy once you get it, it will change your perspective and you will understand what everyone in here is talking about.

To those who don't want to learn the Tune Method or question its relevance: Find another forum! There are plenty out there.

CJ1045 · Post by **CJ1045** » 2014-06-11 14:57

Well if my thread were still there then you would be able to read that I completely believe in the approach that the best sounding HiFi is that which sounds best to you, not that which is felt to be best by someone else. Tune Dem does not clash with that at all. All I am saying is that what one person thinks best by using Tune Dem is not necessarily what somone else thinks is best. You can see this in the different reactions of people to hearing the same system at the same time. Most Linn dealers are strong supporters of Tune Dem but it is not my experience that they agree on what is the best Linn system.

This drives my view on the 2.48m of cable. I FULLY support your view that 2.48m of cable is the perfect length for you and it continues to be the right length no matter what amp and speakers you use. You used your own ears to do the testing and you trust them to believe in the results. We tell our customers to do the same - use your own ears. Where I disagree is that you SEEM to be saying that this length is going to be best for everyone. I am not the best with words and obviously what I write is in your second language but I hope what I think is clear.

Warm regards
CJ

Post by **lejonklou** » 2014-06-11 18:27

CJ, I get a strong impression that you have misunderstood the Tune Method. You see, the whole idea with it is that the results are NOT subjective, but objective and universal to a high degree. This is something one discovers when learning the method - that you get virtually the same results as everyone else when comparing A with B. There might be some interesting controversy, but over details rather than fundamentals.

An example is asking people on this forum to rank power amplifiers. The lists will be almost identical. There might be debate over a specific position, but nobody using the Tune Method will rank Linn AV5125 over the 100W and 200W Chakra amps. The former simply isn't as tuneful.

The Tune Method is what all my development work relies on. It is Better or Worse, not "to my ears" or my subjective preferences. I use blind testing as often as possible and whenever in doubt, I consult others to confirm my findings.

As have been said before, the point of this forum is to build knowledge together. That necessitates a common standard, which is the Tune Method. By knowing that everyone uses it, we can trust each other's findings, without keeping track of who's who.