Forum issues are discussed here

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by rowlandhills » 2016-03-22 13:33

Odd, must be something in the latest version of Chrome then. Not a major issue as Chrome saves my login details anyway, it's just one extra click before I get back to the "New Posts" page.

Thanks guys.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by lejonklou » 2016-04-17 01:34

We have soon posted 25,000 messages on this forum!

Only 68 to go.

Thank you everyone who is contributing to the wealth of knowledge in here! And to those of you who only lurks and never posts: Thank you too! Lurkers are always welcome.

Now who will post number 25,000?

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Charlie1 » 2016-07-20 09:47

Has anyone else stopped getting an email notification when they have a new PM?

I've checked my settings and they are correct.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by sunbeamgls » 2017-01-19 00:22

About 4 weeks of discussion have been cut from the JBL3677 thread.

Fine with that as it was way off topic. A couple of contributors (including myself) noted very early on that it was going off topic and suggested the content be moved to a new thread.

Would it be possible to move off-topic to new threads rather than deleting in the future please?

Thanks :)
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by matthias » 2017-01-19 06:40

sunbeamgls wrote:Would it be possible to move off-topic to new threads rather than deleting in the future please? Thanks :)
+1

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by sunbeamgls » 2017-01-21 00:17

There's a whole bunch of 3677 specific content that was wiped from that thread.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Music Lover » 2017-01-21 00:40

Yes it was!
I suggest creating a new thread "Exakt'ed 3677" (or similar) with the removed posts.
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by matthias » 2017-01-21 08:51

Music Lover wrote:Yes it was!
I suggest creating a new thread "Exakt'ed 3677" (or similar) with the removed posts.
+1
To split and create a new thread has been a normal procedure in the past.
There have been some valuable contributions within the deleted posts.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by hcl » 2017-01-21 09:45

I find the moderation of this forum to have past the border of acceptable. It is not only used to keep the discussion on track, but seemingly also to cut out opinions that are not in line with the ideas of the moderators.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Ozzzy189 » 2017-01-21 13:11

Someone is pissed with power. I'm very disappointed with the moderation here, it's totally unacceptable. Heavy handed and based on one person's opinion a whole lot of entertaining and interesting discussion has been binned. Ridiculous.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by TMV » 2017-01-21 13:43

Forum rules are very clear: "If you do not agree with the validity of the Tune Method OR regard a different method of evalutation as more important or valid, this forum is not for you."
Without the moderation this forum would just end up as just another hifi forum.

Still I don't think it's necessary to erase. Split and create a new thread, maybe under a different category (Other). Then you can keep the main forum Tune Dem (on topic) based, without pissing people off.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Azazello » 2017-01-21 14:23

Hi everybody!

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. The time and focus I have to spend on the moderations is very limited at the moment.

This forum han been around for quite some time now, and every now and then this same event reoccurs. One, or a couple of members, usually new, starts driving the discussion in a way that doesn't promote the quality we are striving for. It's always difficult to figure out what to do in these cases. Many times I have tried to politely point to the fact that it might be a better idea to listen to someone with more experience than to argue with them, but this usually ends up in more "debate" that dosen't promote quality. So I end up deleting a lot of stuff, upsetting a lot of members in the process. Often including long loved regular members that has been around since we started. 10 (!!!) years ago (Jesus I'm so OLD!).

I have said this before and I will say it again. There is no perfect way to manage these situations. This forum is about hifi evaluated with tune-dem. We who run it have our idea of what tune-dem is, and if you don't agree, you are free to start your own forum with your own concept. We will never accept long pointless "debates". If you prefer a forum that promotes "freedom of speech" or "democracy" or any other beautiful principle: there are plenty of them.

This forum started very much because some of us felt that other forums were totally unbearable, since they in our eyes were dominated by people that seemed to have a lot of time on their hands, rather that a lot of knowledge, insight or experience.

In this particular case I spent probably an hour or so trying to figure out how to split the thread, what posts to keep, and so on. Finally I gave up and deleted everything from the point where the tread went astray. I have looked through all the posts, and to be honest I don't think a lot of valuable information was lost, and definitely nothing about 3677.

The misstanke, that I apologize for, was that I didn't see it, and acted on it, sooner.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Azazello » 2017-01-21 14:36

Ozzzy189 wrote:Someone is pissed with power. I'm very disappointed with the moderation here, it's totally unacceptable. Heavy handed and based on one person's opinion a whole lot of entertaining and interesting discussion has been binned. Ridiculous.
Sorry that you feel that way, but the intention of this forum has never been to be "entertaining". We strive to create high quality information. Information that is worth reading in the future, for someone seeking information on the subject that the forum (and thread) covers.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Azazello » 2017-01-21 14:47

hcl wrote:I find the moderation of this forum to have past the border of acceptable. It is not only used to keep the discussion on track, but seemingly also to cut out opinions that are not in line with the ideas of the moderators.
Absolutely yes. It would be pointless to let people write all kind of rubbish as long as they claim to be using tune-dem. At the end of the day I have to make a subjective assessment on what I feel is acceptable. And to be honest, it's quite easy to spot the ones that dosen't get it.

However, unlike North Korea or the Islamic State, we are not forcing anything on anyone :) Almost all of my friends think this forum is ridiculous, and I still love them. Think of it as a church that you are free to enter as long as you follow certain rules. Outside of it, we do not try to spread our beliefs or criticize anyone with a different faith.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by sunbeamgls » 2017-01-21 20:37

As far as I recall there were maybe 6 or so posts that referred to Tune dem. Nearly all of them said why / how it was a good idea or a good contribution to evaluating a system. Why delete dozens of posts, many of them about the various attributes of the 3677, why they work for some people, was their merit in having Exakt filters or not, for the 3677 etc. etc.

Tune dem was a small part of those posts, not a major part of the thread. They could've been removed and the other stuff left in place. We've lost some good to and fro discussion about what makes the 3677 work, including input from Fredrik. That's a shame.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Nature » 2017-01-21 23:02

Azazello wrote:This forum is about hifi evaluated with tune-dem. We who run it have our idea of what tune-dem is, and if you don't agree, you are free to start your own forum with your own concept. We will never accept long pointless "debates". If you prefer a forum that promotes "freedom of speech" or "democracy" or any other beautiful principle: there are plenty of them.
I like the way this forum is moderated.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Ron The Mon » 2017-01-22 00:33

I like the way this forum is moderated.
AMEN!

Tune-dem is a requirement here and source-first a by-product. Many members here intentionally lie when signing up; they do not believe in tune-dem at all. If you use any evaluation method to judge any hi-fi system (as I have) you will still end up with source-first as a maxum.

If you believe "Exakt" is awesome; go away and enjoy it. If you use "tune-dem" you will understand there must be a hierarchy.

"Tune-Dem" means a properly set-up LP12 system will sound better than any digital source system. If you don't own an LP12 or any records, it's your loss but you should.

Any hi-fi evaluation method will end up identifying the source as most important. Period!

The Lejonklou Forum standards should be updated. The Linn Radikal is more important than the Keel. A digital file is more important than the player. The digital player more important than the DAC. The DAC more important than the pre-amp. The pre-amp more important than the power-amp. The power-amp more important than the speakers. The speakers more important than the room.

This also means speaker crossover and room correction doesn't belong in the source.

Period.

Ron The Mon
Last edited by Ron The Mon on 2017-01-22 00:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by donuk » 2017-01-22 00:46

I think several of the hifi forums are at a low ebb at the moment, perhaps for different reasons.

It is honest of Az to state that this forum does not seek to be entertaining; that is a shame.

That tells me that this forum is not clear in what it seeks to be.

It is not a document of learning; it is not referenced, and many of the contributions are intellectually of a poor standard. Mine included of course. I use my hifi only as a hobby, my reading about it is also done for fun. As far as I know this forum is compiled mainly by amateurs as an act of pleasure or enjoyment. Thomas and Fredrick are professionals and may have different motives.

It take Az's point that some people make a very minimal contribution while hiding behind the holy cloak of Tunedem. For what it's worth I have spent a lot of time over the years understand what Tunedem is all about. To me it is a simple aid for those individuals who may need some assistance in comparing sounds. If you want to limit the forum to individuals who rely on these tools then fine, but I think you are losing input from people who use their perfectly good set of ears differently.

Which takes me back to the purpose of this forum. I have told Fredrick in the past that I think his equipment is of astounding quality and a world leader. The danger of running an arcane forum, run by apparent eccentrics is that the casual browser is in danger of making wrong assumptions. Lejonklou products are not hair-shirt cult pieces of equipment who have to be taught how to listen to them. They would be at home in any lounge or study. You do not have to be a hifi nurd schooled in the art of tune dem to hear how good the amplifiers are.

But reading this forum you might think so. Who cares if a contributor strays from the original subject or introduces a humorous diversion. I certainly never do; if I were contracted to produce professional text, I would. When the hobby stops being fun we should all give up.

Donuk dark downtown York

I have just read the contribution by Ron the Mon who has managed to exemplify exactly the sort of arrogant dogma that makes me cringe. I am sure you are a nice bloke, and I wish I were as certain about the subject as you are; my life would be a lot simpler.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Ron The Mon » 2017-01-22 01:38

donuk wrote:... I use my hifi only as a hobby, my reading about it is also done for fun. As far as I know this forum is compiled mainly by amateurs as an act of pleasure or enjoyment...
Don,
I take playing musical instruments and listening to music live very seriously. I play music daily and go out a minimum of once a week to hear live music; usually two or three times a week.

I take hi-fi VERY seriously: I listen to music in my car for half an hour daily, at work a couple hours daily, at home around two hours daily and in addition several hours more my home hi-fi doubles as audio for movies and TV.
I take it VERY seriously. It is not for fun or a hobby. It is a fundamentally important tool to enjoy and understand and improve music in my life. I own over ten thousand LPs, many hundreds tapes, and 78s. I own several thousand CDs and many more digital files. Hi-fi is not a hobby for me but a way of life which I take very seriously. I am not an amateur.

Ron the Mon

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by matthias » 2017-01-22 17:02

Ron The Mon wrote:The Linn Radikal is more important than the Keel.
It is an official statement from DW of Linn that the PS and motor are more important than the sub chassis.
But the two owners of the well-reputed House of Linn in Manchester think the contrary. The result of their tune dem comparison was that they prefered the Keel to the Radikal.
Very interesting.

Matt
Last edited by matthias on 2017-01-22 17:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by matthias » 2017-01-22 17:15

Ron The Mon wrote:I am not an amateur.
An amateur is a lover of something like music.

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Music Lover » 2017-01-22 20:36

Azazello wrote:However, unlike North Korea or the Islamic State, we are not forcing anything on anyone :)
Azazello wrote: Think of it as a church that you are free to enter as long as you follow certain rules. Outside of it, we do not try to spread our beliefs or criticize anyone with a different faith.
These are very self-righteous sentences.
In these countries wrong opinions are not allowed either and "removed". How is your behaviour not the same?
And in churches, at-least outside the Islamic State, you can speak up freely, all opinions are allowed and there are not specific rules to follow. I have friends from all religions and they are kind, humble and open for other opinions.
Comparing with these are for me strange.

But...forums for me is a different environment = no need to be compared with other items to justify it's existing imho.
We CAN have strict rules here on the forum BUT the policing of the rules can be done in a nice way OR with arrogance.

This is my take on this:
1/ As you said yourself, you has been absent from the forum for some time
2/ Someone asked to split the thread, and no response = apparently it was ok to continue
3/ You the read the thread, still no response from you
4/ You decided "no useful information", without even asking us
5/ Instead of moving it, you just removed everything

To be honest I'm disappointed of your attitude. Where is the humility?

With power comes responsibility.
Having the total power, you need to be humble, very kind and VERY careful using it.


That said, I agree this forum should have high quality and with Tune Dem as the corner stone.
But it's NOT a nice behaviour you being absent and then from the clear sky removing weeks of information!
I'm VERY disappointed.
Either you step in sooner, or eat the humble pie!
It's all about musical understanding!

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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by sunbeamgls » 2017-01-22 20:57

A point of order, raised in the spirit of this recent chunk of moderating.

As far as I can see, the forum rules make no mention whatsoever of Tune Dem. I assume that is because Tune Dem was someone else's idea and is possibly subject to some kind of IPR protection.

So if you're going to get on whatever the equivalent of a moderator's high horse is and refer back to the rules, to which 90% or so of what you deleted made no reference, perhaps closer reading of the rules would be a good place to start. I would also observe that none of the posts questioned the validity of Tune Dem, nor that Tune Dem was the most important criteria to use, which is all the forum rules refer to (albeit in relation to Tune Method rather than Tune Dem).

I also looked at what the rules say about hierarchy. Again, I don't think any of the deleted posts question nor contradicted that hierarchy. They merely put forward an alternative definition of 'source' whilst continuing to support the source first hierarchy.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by sunbeamgls » 2017-01-22 21:11

RTM

Thanks for your thoughts. Good to see your contributions, I thought you had stopped contributing as you didn't respond in the 3677 thread to correct the stuff you posted as facts which clearly weren't facts.

Here you mention room correction again, even though it wasn't part of the discussion about defining a source, repeated several times in the thread to make that clear. I also wish you luck in proving that a good source guarantees a good Tune Dem. I gave examples where this was clearly not true. A good source in a good system is absolutely going to be the thing to focus on to improve and get an even better Tune Dem, but couple a good source with unlistenable components downstream results in something unlistenable.
Improving the source first is always going to be the priority in something that is already listenable. But a rubbish component further down the line is always going to be a limitation. Source first is a (correct) hierarchy, not a miracle worker.
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Re: Forum issues are discussed here

Post by Erik » 2017-01-22 21:18

My view:
This is a forum for us thinking evaluation of music performance is made in an objective way and has nothing to do with "personal preferences".
We have passed that stage and also found out that source first always applies.
Contribution to the forum is highly appreciated and the aim is to helping each other to get the most out of our music libraries.

Erik

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