Preamp to match Tundra

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2013-02-19 00:35

Isn't fredrik working on a tundra pre amp? I'm reading this intently guys, very good feedback. I will be demoing the tundra Amps one day I hope.

HIDDENSYSTEMS · Post by **HIDDENSYSTEMS** » 2013-02-19 09:12

He'd be mad not to. Let's have a little request of number of inputs/outputs..eg.

4 x RCA IN stereo pairs
1 x RCA OUT
1 x RS232 Input to talk from DS? Or just IR

With Modular options for
1x MM Integrated Phono Stage?
1 x MC Integrated Phono Stage?
1 x Lingo Power Supply
1 x Headphone Amp

Battery powered option?

Same width as Tundra of course

Another project ....Tundra Integrated, a Kikkin3 c/w Tundra Stereo but new Rega Elicit R 2013 looks like it will wrap this end of the market up for c.£1600, I think this is being shown at UK Bristol show this weekend

rowlandhills · Post by **rowlandhills** » 2013-02-19 09:33

HIDDENSYSTEMS wrote:He'd be mad not to. Let's have a little request of number of inputs/outputs..eg.

4 x RCA IN stereo pairs
1 x RCA OUT
1 x RS232 Input to talk from DS? Or just IR

With Modular options for
1x MM Integrated Phono Stage?
1 x MC Integrated Phono Stage?
1 x Lingo Power Supply
1 x Headphone Amp

Battery powered option?

Same width as Tundra of course

Probably worth splitting this into a new topic...

I'd start by asking Fredrik to focus on performance not features, as he has with the Tundra and previous projects, but with that caveat, I would say:

RS232 or Network Interface to allow volume control from Kinsky etc. (Noting that Linn's newest preamp the AK/1 doesn't have RS232 any longer, I suspect that this will be going from all of their preamps in future). Possibly this could be an optional module if it impacts sound quality, but I wouldn't buy an amp that I couldn't control the volume via my DS control point.

Unity gain mode to allow use in home cinema systems with an external decoder.

I would personally be happy with just two inputs, one for my DS and one linked to my AV system, which would hold all of the other, lower quality inputs, but I suspect that at least 3, preferably 4 would increase appeal more generally.

I'm not personally concerned about any of the optional modules that you mention, but can see how they would appeal to others.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-02-19 10:09

rowlandhills wrote:
Probably worth splitting this into a new topic...

I'd start by asking Fredrik to focus on performance not features

+1

HIDDENSYSTEMS · Post by **HIDDENSYSTEMS** » 2013-02-19 10:22

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » 2013-02-19 11:33

+1

Fredrik, no pressure.

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2013-02-19 16:36

I'd certainly be tempted by a pre and the main thing I'd like is volume control through kinsky. I like my Kikkin a lot but it is a bit odd going back to having to have a remote control rather than using the iphone/ipad, especially as my hifi lives in a cupboard with the door closed.

Of course, I could just set the kikkin at a sensible level and then also use the digital volume control on my Klimax Renew, keeping it in the supposedly sweeter 80-100 range rather than the 50-65 I used when playing direct. I may experiment with this tonight in fact. I guess the ideal would be to set the Renew to 80 volume (i.e. unity gain) and then set the kikkin to a level towards the lower end of the scale I would normally listen.

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2013-02-19 16:51

* Works with a DS either controllable via Linn remote, RS232 or ethernet (probably most sensible).
* Multi-input though not necessarily a moving coil input,? Perhaps make that an add-on module.
* Is a front display necessary? Not so much with DS but probably so with other sources - i.e volume value.
* Are front controls necessary? Maybe not but useful fallback if remote not working/lost.
* RCA and XLR? I'd certainly like XLR inputs as I personally prefer DS to XLR and nice to have the option to power amps? This may imply a fully-balanced design.
* Stereo only? Probably, but some AV people would be happy if it could handle 5.1 or 7.1. I find that all rather distasteful personally.

And of course everything we take for granted e.g parametric equalizer and flashy lights on the front.

tmilligan · Post by **tmilligan** » 2013-02-19 17:00

With regard to spec I'd say:

* Line only but yes, perhaps the option of MM/MC modules if people don't want these as stand-alone units
* Control through Kinsky
* For me, no buttons, just a row of LEDs to show which input was selected and what the volume level was
* Stereo only

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2013-02-19 17:17

I would like to have a high headroom preamp for use with studio equipment like the Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC.

The Stereo192-DSD-DAC factory output is designed as follows:

XLR output DEFAULT:
Average level (0 VU) = +4dBu= 1.228 VRMS on XLR (between pin 2 and 3)
Output trim (adjustable in menu) = -18dBFS
Max output (sinewave) 9.79V RMS or 13.84V Peak or 27.69 V Peak to peak (Voltage swing)

This is the typical professional recording setting well handled by professional and some hi-fi equipment typically powered by +/-15V power rails (or larger).

It's recommended for Hi-Fi systems with well designed high headroom preamps.

Erik · Post by **Erik** » 2013-02-19 18:08

My wish list
Better than a Klimax Kontrol
Two inputs , line level
Volume remote.

/Erik

TMV · Post by **TMV** » 2013-02-19 18:57

My wish list:
Volume and source remote with same app as DS.
Three inputs, line level (AV, CD/DS, LP12)

Otional MM/MC and DC for Lejonklou Motor Control Unit for LP12 would also be nice....

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2013-02-19 19:54

Ozzzy189 wrote:Isn't fredrik working on a tundra pre amp?

HIDDENSYSTEMS wrote:He'd be mad not to.

+1

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2013-02-19 21:21

Erik wrote:My wish list
Better than a Klimax Kontrol

+1

matthias

Azazello · Post by **Azazello** » 2013-02-19 21:47

I would love the possibility to change the volume without a remote.

macrotech2 · Post by **macrotech2** » 2013-02-20 09:31

Better than a Klimax Kontrol? No pressure then, Fredrik!
... but +1 from me on that.

mrco99 · Post by **mrco99** » 2013-02-20 10:36

HTC just launched a new Android phone: HTC One.
It features an infrared port, that has dissapeared on most current smartphones.
HTC said to have brought it back to replace infrared remotes, as the smartphone is usually already at hand when listening music or watching tv.

Could be easier to implement for Fredrik than getting his (pre)amp controllable through Ethernet like Linn does.
RS232 is already being phased out by Linn and replaced by Ethernet ports, so wouldn´t put precious time into that.

Given the current Tundra line-up I´d see a separate pre-amp with multiple inputs as the most logical next step up. An integrated headphone amp would be a great feature to me, but probably not ´pure´ enough for a KK competitor.
At least that is what Fredrik should be aiming for, in my humble opinion.

Music Lover · Post by **Music Lover** » 2013-02-20 11:56

HIDDENSYSTEMS wrote:+1

What do you mean by this?
Your first post is filled with (in my view) a huge number of features that make the pre complex and likely going to kill the performance, then you post a "+1"...

To make my view clear - I want the pre to be simple with full focus on performance.
Simple = no modular options and inbuilt cards as this makes optimization more or less impossible.
I'm convinced only ONE architecture is most musical, why then a modular approach?
And I'm also convinced that it's better having separate phone stages, Lingo PSU's and head phone amps as EACH of them can be optimized and UPGRADED separately.

Also I consider it not advisable only relying on a Linn DS to control the pre.
Not all customers owns a DS and what if Linn decide changing their way controlling their products?

Sadly the market is heavily towards fully integrated products but I know by experience this is a dead end if performance is key.

imho (well not humble but strong opinion) Fredrik should NOT try competing on the "competitor playing field", he should stick to his own niche = simplicity, performance and constantly improving his products (upgrades)

So ending up trying to compete with others in a feature race just going to be suicide.
Especially as Fredrik is SO STRONG in his niche.

Trust me, the competitors would love seeing him moving away from his playing field!

matthias · Post by **matthias** » 2013-02-20 12:38

Music Lover wrote:To make my view clear - I want the pre to be simple with full focus on performance. Simple = no modular options and inbuilt cards as this makes optimization more or less impossible. I'm convinced only ONE architecture is most musical, why then a modular approach? And I'm also convinced that it's better having separate phone stages, Lingo PSU's and head phone amps as EACH of them can be optimized and UPGRADED separately. Also I consider it not advisable only relying on a Linn DS to control the pre. Not all customers owns a DS and what if Linn decide changing their way controlling their products? Sadly the market is heavily towards fully integrated products but I know by experience this is a dead end if performance is key. Imho (well not humble but strong opinion) Fredrik should NOT try competing on the "competitor playing field", he should stick to his own niche = simplicity, performance and constantly improving his products (upgrades). So ending up trying to compete with others in a feature race just going to be suicide.Especially as Fredrik is SO STRONG in his niche. Trust me, the competitors would love seeing him moving away from his playing field!

+1
matthias

mrco99 · Post by **mrco99** » 2013-02-20 12:40

I agree with your post ML, and to clarify my reaction above, KK should not be the item to be beat by Fredrik.

His ongoing search and devotion for the ultimate musical reproduction is his key strength, no fiff-faffs should be added that can distort this.
By doing so, his ´no-compromise´ preamp could be a strong candidate to compete against the KK musically.
Just like Tundra power amps are compared against KCT/Solos for musicality.

I understand the compromises Linn has to make though, in order to appeal to a broader audience. They simply can not afford to embed some sort of convenience for their customer base, even if it would affect sound quality.
Power amps don´t have this issue.

Fredrik´s customer base, built up around his philosophy of tune-dem and musicality first, will probably also favour ultimate sound quality above extra features and userability.
But I think we can count on Fredrik that if he finds ways to implement a software based volume control, that also passes his sound judgement, he will not reject it.

Rufus McDufus · Post by **Rufus McDufus** » 2013-02-20 13:03

We may be confusing extras feature sets with minimal feature sets here. For instance what would be the ideal minimum number of inputs? Tune-dem testing would probably indicate just one input due to its simplicity. But how far do we go? Do we have just one input, which only a few people would find convenient, or should there be more? There will always be a level of compromise in order to make the product attractive to enough people to justify its manufacture. The purity argument would tend to point to an improved Kikkin, one input, one method of volume control etc. - maybe this no-compromise approach is actually the best solution? That is very much Fredrik's choice I guess.

macrotech2 · Post by **macrotech2** » 2013-02-20 13:21

Fredrik said he was currently thinking of four inputs at Anthony's last weekend, but he is open to suggestions.

mrco99 · Post by **mrco99** » 2013-02-20 13:33

Well, a lot of suggestions already done here...

;-)

HIDDENSYSTEMS · Post by **HIDDENSYSTEMS** » 2013-02-20 13:39

Music Lover wrote:
HIDDENSYSTEMS wrote:+1
What do you mean by this?
Your first post is filled with (in my view) a huge number of features that make the pre complex and likely going to kill the performance, then you post a "+1"...

The +1 was in agreement that a preamp should be on a separate thread as suggested by someone...

We agree with performance all the way - the inputs and outputs are up to Fredrik not us and your views will be read by him. Don't take our words so serious to change a minimal spec design into something complex.

Ozzzy189 · Post by **Ozzzy189** » 2013-02-20 16:46

A new kikkin in an enclosure to match tundra would do me, with a few improvements where possible. There could be two versions available a la tundra, one simple single input version, and another more complete version with a number of inputs, phono stage etc and so on.